Model S buyer--previous EV/Hybrid owner?

[efusco]

But lacking in this poll is Human Powered Vehicle. I used a bicycle as primary transport (with some MARTA in Atlanta) for 3 years. Commuting 12 miles one way during 1 year.

Specifically interested in the cars in this case--whatever the 'highest level' There might be a handful who have never had a car that are going straight to a Model S, but I assume that number is diminishingly small.

I personally see Hybrids as awful compromises between an EV (I have always wanted a AC Induction powered vehicle) and a regular car. The original Insight I liked, and the Volt concept of EV with generator (it needs more battery capacity, and no default GM bungling), but the Toyota model of 2 substantial drive systems seems a waste.

I think, perhaps, you have not done your homework. If anything you have the entire concept backward. Toyota has a very nicely integrated hybrid system that actually cannot be separated b/c the ICE and hybrid components are so tightly integrated with one another. There is absolutely no argueing the improvement in efficiency and in many ways the HSD of Toyota's is simpler and requires less maintenance and causes less wear than a conventional ICE car. The Honda models are a step behind with integration and the IMA system, IMO, is less efficient and certainly less refined. And if you want to talk Chevy Volt--I don't even know where to start, it does crappy running on gas, has only about 32 mile EV range before you must run on gas, is heavy, only carries 4 people, has no storage space to speak of, is ridiculously expensive to build and while one might argue that the simpler design of an onboard generator is better than the Toyota HSD, I would respectfully disagree and suggest that it is proof positive of the superior efficiency of the HSD set up.

 

[cinergi]

Never owned a hybrid -- zero interest in that. I'm OK with ICE but truly excited about EV due to (not all of these are exclusive to EV) their torque, single speed tranny, class A regen, simplicity, and inherent advantages (as seen in the S).

 

[howabout2]

Former two-year MINI E driver here.

Never have and probably never will own a hybrid, though, because I consider hybrid a placeholder technology--a stop-gap until full EV options are more readily available. I am so disinterested in hybrid vehicles, in fact, that I do not even own a car right now. If I can't drive my Model S today, I don't really feel like driving anything.

 

[dpeilow]

I think, perhaps, you have not done your homework. If anything you have the entire concept backward. Toyota has a very nicely integrated hybrid system that actually cannot be separated b/c the ICE and hybrid components are so tightly integrated with one another.

...

And if you want to talk Chevy Volt--I don't even know where to start

And yet whereas the Prius produces 104g/km emissions, the Volt/Ampera produces 64g/km when running in EV mode from the UK grid. Whereas the Prius is always burning gas, I can do all my commuting and many other journeys completely on electric with the Ampera. I can (and will) charge it on solar. Whereas the Prius gets you from A to B, the Ampera does have the EV characteristics of torque and throttle response that makes driving fun.

This is proof of exactly why GM had to come up with the ER-EV moniker - to try to stop people lumping them together.

I find it funny that so many EV advocates like to dish out this statistic about 95% of journeys being under 25 miles and yet love to criticise the Voltec system for higher consumption and emissions vs. the HSD system over 250 miles.

Look at the holistic view. Over the lifetime of the car, I will be burning £23,000 / 3000 gallons less gas with the Ampera compared to a Prius.


EDIT: Further data to back this up: 95% Of All Trips Could Be Made In Electric Cars, Says Study

 

[WhiteKnight]

I find it funny that so many EV advocates like to dish out this statistic about 95% of journeys being under 25 miles and yet love to criticise the Voltec system for higher consumption and emissions vs. the HSD system over 250 miles.

Look at the holistic view. Over the lifetime of the car, I will be burning £23,000 / 3000 gallons less gas with the Ampera compared to a Prius.

My boss has a Volt and he loves driving it - drives it to work everyday. He has driven something like 6,000 miles and only used 4 gallons of gasoline. He said the ICE turning on is the biggest buzz kill that he does anything he can to avoid using it.

 

[smorgasbord]

Although I'm now a Roadster owner, I entered "Conventional Only" because I actually put down a deposit on a Model S before making the decision to buy a Roadster.

 

[Trnsl8r]

Although I'm now a Roadster owner, I entered "Conventional Only" because I actually put down a deposit on a Model S before making the decision to buy a Roadster.

You just couldn't wait, huh? :smile:

 

[dsm363]

Although I'm now a Roadster owner, I entered "Conventional Only" because I actually put down a deposit on a Model S before making the decision to buy a Roadster.

Me too actually. It will be about 3.25 years from deposit to delivery on the Model S for me. I made it until Oct. 2010 before I gave up and got the Roadster. Still looking forward to the Model S though.

 

[NigelM]

My boss has a Volt and he loves driving it - drives it to work everyday. He has driven something like 6,000 miles and only used 4 gallons of gasoline. He said the ICE turning on is the biggest buzz kill that he does anything he can to avoid using it.

So how does he feel about lugging that useless lump of metal around everywhere he goes?

 

[EVNow]

My boss has a Volt and he loves driving it - drives it to work everyday. He has driven something like 6,000 miles and only used 4 gallons of gasoline. He said the ICE turning on is the biggest buzz kill that he does anything he can to avoid using it.

Yes - it is called the ICE anxiety

I think some just feel safer in a car they can drive long distance - just like people who buy an SUV to drive to the nearby grocery store or soccer field, just in case.

 

[efusco]

And yet whereas the Prius produces 104g/km emissions, the Volt/Ampera produces 64g/km when running in EV mode from the UK grid. Whereas the Prius is always burning gas, I can do all my commuting and many other journeys completely on electric with the Ampera. I can (and will) charge it on solar. Whereas the Prius gets you from A to B, the Ampera does have the EV characteristics of torque and throttle response that makes driving fun.

This is proof of exactly why GM had to come up with the ER-EV moniker - to try to stop people lumping them together.

I find it funny that so many EV advocates like to dish out this statistic about 95% of journeys being under 25 miles and yet love to criticise the Voltec system for higher consumption and emissions vs. the HSD system over 250 miles.

Look at the holistic view. Over the lifetime of the car, I will be burning £23,000 / 3000 gallons less gas with the Ampera compared to a Prius.

don't misunderstand me, I'm not a Volt "hater" per say, but it's just silly to not point out the things that make it less than desirable and that add to the cost/complexity issues. It is a PHEV, period, no matter what advertising spin GM likes to put on it. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But as in the example of the boss who has only used 4 gallons of gas, IMO that's a perfect example of someone who doesn't need a PHEV, he/she needs a pure EV and would be much better off with a Nissan Leaf. And whether one is burning less gas vs a Prius is entirely dependent upon one's driving habits/needs. If one routinely goes over the 40 (or 32 realistically) mile range of the EV only mode and/or doesn't have opportunity for recharging conveniently then the Volt is far less efficient, produces more CO2, has less passenger and cargo room and ends up lugging around a large battery pack. In CM mode it is less efficient in converting energy than the Prius.

They are different tools. But I was addressing another poster's specific comment about efficiency of design and in that regard I think there can be little arguement that the HSD of Toyota (and Ford) is the more elegant and best integrated. Indeed, the Plug-In Prius, even with a battery of ~1/2 the range of the Volt, will likely be more efficient over any range more than 50 miles than the volt b/c of that inherent design efficiency.

 

[dpeilow]

So how does he feel about lugging that useless lump of metal around everywhere he goes?

You mean the 60kWh of S battery that you might not ever use? :tongue:

 

[dpeilow]

Indeed, the Plug-In Prius, even with a battery of ~1/2 the range of the Volt, will likely be more efficient over any range more than 50 miles than the volt b/c of that inherent design efficiency.

The PiP is a very different beast. I was thoroughly unimpressed when I drove it - even more so than the regular Prius (which did what it claims to do well in American stop-start traffic). For start it fires up its ICE when accelerating unless you tiptoe on the accelerator. Secondly, it can't run in EV mode at motorway speed. It's barely distinguishable from the regular Prius for my needs and wont save anywhere near as much gas.

Nikki Gordon Bloomfield tested it on a trip last year and found a real world economy of 63 mpg. Great - that's better than the Volt on long drives. Trouble is the data shows long drives over 70 miles are 1% of driving.

 

[efusco]

The PiP is a very different beast. I was thoroughly unimpressed when I drove it - even more so than the regular Prius. For start it fires up its ICE when accelerating unless you tiptoe on the accelerator. Secondly, it can't run in EV mode at motorway speed. It's barely distinguishable from the regular Prius for my needs.

I've had more than a week behind the wheel of the PIP and can tell you that you can accelerate relatively briskly and go up to 62mph without the ICE kicking in. If you floor it, yep, you'll need to call on the iCE for extra boost as the MG is certainly not capable of the kind of power that the motor in the Volt is. They are different machines, but one can easily make a decent commuter, and a far more efficient one, out of the PIP than the Volt...which I have also driven.

 

[dpeilow]

Well, if you can keep it electric only, you are running on a 80 bhp motor. The 2012 model has a battery with a 36 hp (27kW) output. I guess it depends on your definition of brisk.

One guy on Prius Chat claims that EV mode is cancelled if you turn the heater on.

This guy in the video found what I found - it is very hard to stop the ICE coming on. When he finally got a 0- 60 run in EV only mode, it took 29 seconds.

Electric driving in the 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews

This guy even found that the ICE kicks in when EV mode is selected!

 

[ElSupreme]

don't misunderstand me, I'm not a Volt "hater" per say, but it's just silly to not point out the things that make it less than desirable and that add to the cost/complexity issues. It is a PHEV, period, no matter what advertising spin GM likes to put on it. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. But as in the example of the boss who has only used 4 gallons of gas, IMO that's a perfect example of someone who doesn't need a PHEV, he/she needs a pure EV and would be much better off with a Nissan Leaf. And whether one is burning less gas vs a Prius is entirely dependent upon one's driving habits/needs. If one routinely goes over the 40 (or 32 realistically) mile range of the EV only mode and/or doesn't have opportunity for recharging conveniently then the Volt is far less efficient, produces more CO2, has less passenger and cargo room and ends up lugging around a large battery pack. In CM mode it is less efficient in converting energy than the Prius.

They are different tools. But I was addressing another poster's specific comment about efficiency of design and in that regard I think there can be little arguement that the HSD of Toyota (and Ford) is the more elegant and best integrated. Indeed, the Plug-In Prius, even with a battery of ~1/2 the range of the Volt, will likely be more efficient over any range more than 50 miles than the volt b/c of that inherent design efficiency.

I am a Volt hater. Not because it was a bad idea, but because it was bad execution. GM messed up what should be a really easy thing to get right. But they are really good at messing up cars. But I must disagree. The Volt is not a hybrid vehicle. It can only propel itself forward with an EV power train. It truly is a different concept than a hybrid, a gas generator on top of an EV. GM messed it up by making it a crappy EV. Your Prius has 2 power trains. Your Prius also is slow, and has also had 15 years of refinement to get those MPG numbers up. A dedicated single RPM gasoline engine will be more efficient than a traditional car/transmission setup, even if Volt vs. Prius doesn't meet this case.

I am not denying that the Prius isn't more fuel efficient than a regular gasoline car. But having 2 substantial drive trains is excessive.
.

 

[dsm363]

I thought the Volt could, under certain circumstances, use the gas engine to drive the wheels.
Demystifying the Chevy Volts Mostly-Electric Engine | Popular Science

 

[NigelM]

You mean the 60kWh of S battery that you might not ever use? :tongue:

Ouch! :smile:

But somehow, using electric charge to carry around rarely used battery capacity feels much better than using electric charge to carry around a rarely used combustion engine...an spare battery capacity doesn't require servicing.

 

[smorgasbord]

Trouble is the data shows long drives over 70 miles are 1% of driving.

I'm curious about these kinds of statistics are calculated. My commute is about 20 miles each way. That means I need at least 40 miles of range, since there are no chargers at work. If I need to run errands, then I should probably have 50, and if you include a safety factor for not using the bottom or top 10% of the battery, then I need about 65 miles of achievable range. So, is my typical schedule reported as 20 miles or as 65 miles?

I think the statistic needs to be how many miles people drive per day total, not individual trip length.

 

[qwk]

Ouch! :smile:

But somehow, using electric charge to carry around rarely used battery capacity feels much better than using electric charge to carry around a rarely used combustion engine...an spare battery capacity doesn't require servicing.

And the gas in spare capacity doesn't go stale if not used.