Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation [Car announced 04.23.2024]

[gearchruncher]

Edit: As far as I can tell, it's not possible to buy the Tequipment performance package for the Taycan Turbo S here in the United States, unlike the Track Package for the Plaid which is readily available.

And you can't use the Tesla Track Pack on the street in Germany as the tires are illegal. This is what you get on Tesla's german site:

For track use only—not intended for use on public roads. Any use on public roads may be illegal and may void the vehicle's operating license or insurance. After installation, the customer is obliged to pick up his vehicle with a truck or trailer at his own expense.

So yeah, we're comparing a car on full track tires to one that has street legal tires if we consider the streets around the track, not just streets in a different country.

 

[Apprunner]

What you're saying is that the Plaid accelerates better and the Taycan handles better, so on the track, they balance out?

I'm sure the Taycan handles better on track but on street, its harder to extract handling performance vs. acceleration. Most street engagements (which shouldn't be done) will usually end up with the faster accelerating car winning out. I wonder which car would win in autocross? I wonder if the Taycan would win in a shorter, tighter track. Anyone have data on this?

 

[nate704]

I'm sure the Taycan handles better on track but on street, its harder to extract handling performance vs. acceleration. Most street engagements (which shouldn't be done) will usually end up with the faster accelerating car winning out. I wonder which car would win in autocross? I wonder if the Taycan would win in a shorter, tighter track. Anyone have data on this?

Taycan Turbo S: 5170 lbs
Plaid: 4766 lbs

Lighter cars have more advantage for acceleration, handling, etc.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/taycan-turbo-s-vs-model-s-plaid-really-by-this-much.6064/

 

[gearchruncher]

I wonder which car would win in autocross? I wonder if the Taycan would win in a shorter, tighter track. Anyone have data on this?

Both are awful autocross cars easly crushed by a Model 3 and Miatas, so kind of a pointless question. Wheelbase and width kills you in AutoX.

Also impossible to compare unless the same driver drives both at the same AutoX, as 5% differences in AutoX drivers is super common.

...Or we have hundreds of AutoX events with a Plaid and a Taycan to do larger statistical comparisons. Yet nerither car has ever shown up at any of the hundreds of AutoX events I have been to, so that data doesn't exist.

Remember we are here because of this comment, upon which people offered up Nurburgring times to refute:

and his response to the Taycan turbo S was the Plaid…which is faster in a straight line…but that’s about it.

And now we've got people going:

I'm sure the Taycan handles better on track but on street, its harder to extract handling performance vs. acceleration.

Anyway, I'm as guilty as anyone, but we should probably go back to discssing M3P's.

 

[gearchruncher]

Lighter cars have more advantage for acceleration, handling, etc.

So we all agree the 4,065lb M3P is WAY better than a 4,766lb Plaid, right? And it should obliterate the Plaid?

Or maybe we just proved that the Nurburgring isn't really that interesting of a measure of real performance in a street car. An interesting reality of EV's is that they tend to get better acceleration as they get heavier, and modern tires don't give up as much with weight increase as you'd think. Cars have only gotten much, much quicker around tracks as they have gotten heavier. The weight argument only applies if you have the exact same tires, horsepower, and suspension systems. Otherwise of course you can make other tradeoffs that aren't reflected in weight. I mean, a Plaid will out-accelerate a F1 car to 0-60 and 0-100 also because that's not important to the much, much lighter F1 car.

Both the Taycan and Plaid are proof that EV power density dominates on big road courses like the 'Ring and overcomes the handling penalties of their weight if all you care about is lap times.

Which is why a lot of us are excited for a M3P that doesn't weigh more than currently does, but has more power at higher speeds, as this should handle the same or better than the current M3P (which is pretty darn good!) and then also get the benefits on larger tracks.

 

[nate704]

So we all agree the 4,065lb M3P is WAY better than a 4,766lb Plaid, right? And it should obliterate the Plaid?

Or maybe we just proved that the Nurburgring isn't really that interesting of a measure of real performance in a street car. An interesting reality of EV's is that they tend to get better acceleration as they get heavier, and modern tires don't give up as much with weight increase as you'd think. Cars have only gotten much, much quicker around tracks as they have gotten heavier. The weight argument only applies if you have the exact same tires, horsepower, and suspension systems.

Both the Taycan and Plaid are proof that EV power density dominates on big road courses like the 'Ring and overcomes the handling penalties of their weight if all you care about is lap times.

Which is why a lot of us are excited for a M3P that doesn't weigh more than currently does, but has more power at higher speeds, as this should handle the same or better than the current M3P (which is pretty darn good!) and then also get the benefits on larger tracks.

Reading comprehension is hard to come by these days. "have more advantage" doesn't mean "obliterate".

You can enjoy your Taycan while Plaid owners enjoy theirs. period.

 

[GregD60]

What % on the Nurburgring is "obliterates"? 8 seconds between the Taycan and the Plaid is the same as the Plaid to a 2012 Nissan GTR. Do we agree a decade old GTR obliterates a Plaid? What about a 2018 Camaro, on identical tires, that ran 9 seconds faster? Complete annaihilation, right? I don't even know the words we could come up with for the cars that are running 13 seconds faster!

Hyperbolic language doesn't help anyone, and I really wonder how many of you have driven on a track if you think 1.5% faster is "obliteration," particularly while bench racing two cars on different days.

And FYI, the tires used on the Plaid Track Pack are not street legal in Europe, so this was not in a sreet legal configuration, while the Taycan P Zero Corsas were.

See Tesla Model S Plaid With Track Package Go Around F1 Circuit In Video Review

Is the $20,000 optional package worth the money? This first drive review of the Tesla Model S Plaid Track Package tries to find out.

insideevs.com

Tesla's own website for the track pack in Germany: https://shop.tesla.com/de_de/product/model-s-plaid-track-package?sku=1938526-00-A

Supercar 3Rs might be good for a couple of seconds on a lap of the Nurburgring over the P Zero Corsas, but they're both sticky "R" type tires. Most of the other 6 seconds of the advantage of the Plaid versus the Taycan might be due to its better acceleration, but I think the overall handling and braking of the two cars is pretty close. Also, everything you've been claiming about the Plaid that ran at the Nurburgring also applies to the Taycan.

The bottom line is that on most tracks, a Model S Plaid with Track Package will be faster than a Taycan Turbo S with the Tequipment Package.

 

[GregD60]

No, I'm just saying that one Plaid time at the 'ring in a questionably configured car and one Taycan time at the ring doesn't prove:

Cars within 2% of one another are pretty well matched, and in the real world will absolutley come down to drivers.

The Taycan was as "questionably configured" as the Plaid that beat it by 8 seconds. I agree that it will come down to the drivers in cars that are close. I'm sure that both Porsche and Tesla had some serious pros driving their cars. Drivers at that level will generally get the same times out of the same car within a very, very small margin, like within a second or two on the Nurburgring. The reason for both Porsche and Tesla to do these special laps is for bragging rights, and all of us car enthusiasts tend to enjoy these bragging rights as demonstrated by this discussion.

 

[GregD60]

And you can't use the Tesla Track Pack on the street in Germany as the tires are illegal. This is what you get on Tesla's german site:



So yeah, we're comparing a car on full track tires to one that has street legal tires if we consider the streets around the track, not just streets in a different country.

Maybe in Germany, but not in the US where the Supercar 3Rs are legal on the street. While I would say that the 3Rs are a little racier than the Corsas, neither are what I'd call a full track tire. Full track tires are slicks for the dry and specially treaded tires for the wet, both with very soft compounds.

 

[gearchruncher]

Supercar 3Rs might be good for a couple of seconds on a lap of the Nurburgring over the P Zero Corsas

While I would say that the 3Rs are a little racier than the Corsas, neither are what I'd call a full track tire.

Nobody said anything about them being full track tires (well, except Tesla who call them the "track pack."). In fact, we're supposed to be evaluating which car is faster in everyday use on the street, yet we're out here comparing range sapping 100TW tires on EV's as if this has anything to do with anyone driving them on the street. At least we aren't doing it on full slicks I guess, so we can mantain the illusion that this represents the car we drive to the office. But it is suspicious that Pirelli could get their 80TW tire approved for street use in Germany but Goodyear couldn't get their "100TW" approved.

Seems like you agree the Tesla and the Porsche are closer than their times would indicate if they were wearing the same shoes, and the reality is that neither were wearing the tires that any real person uses to drive to the office. So if some of the 8 seconds difference came from tire differences, does 4 seconds difference still count as "obliteration"? What do the cars actually differ by when wearing the tires they actuallly come with from the factory? (you can't get either car with these tires directly from the factory).

As for Porsche being tricky with their lap times, all I can say is Porsche is famous for under-reporting the performance of their cars, while Tesla is famous for getting sued for misleading people over performance. But we'll never know.

Again, only point here is that we don't have data that the "Taycan can't hang with the Plaid" nor proof that "The plaid is only good in a straight line."

 

[Tiger]

What % on the Nurburgring is "obliterates"? 8 seconds between the Taycan and the Plaid is the same as the Plaid to a 2012 Nissan GTR. Do we agree a decade old GTR obliterates a Plaid? What about a 2018 Camaro, on identical tires, that ran 9 seconds faster? Complete annaihilation, right? I don't even know the words we could come up with for the cars that are running 13 seconds faster!

Those other cars are in a totally different weight class. Taycan and Plaid weigh almost the same.

But yeah, right, total annaihilation nevertheless.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Let's bring the conversation back closer to on topic. The Model 3 isn't really a competitor with the Model S Plaid or the Taycan. However, it will directly compete with the Kia EV6 GT and eventually with the Hyundai Ioniq 5N. Both of those cars are EXTREMELY heavy. The Kia EV6 GT is listed at 4,795 LBs on Kia's website. There is no official weight for the Hyundai Ioniq 5N yet but Car and Driver estimates it will weigh 4,900 lbs since it has about 8% more battery capacity than the EV6.

Every review I see treats these two Korean cars like they are going to be track weapons. They are grossly overweight vehicles on extremely heavy but small 255 width 21" wheels. The tires alone weigh almost 30 lbs. Never mind how much the rims weigh.

Kia's website lists the max discharge value as 481 KW(654 HP) at the battery. That definitely exceeds the 462(628 HP) value of the current Model 3 Performance. The Ioniq 5N might exceed 700 HP at the battery or even more.

Just imagine what a 4,050 lb Model 3 Ludicrious could do if it had 700 HP max discharge, a proper launch control(Brake Torque), and could hold max HP much higher in the rpm range. With 275 width rear tires and that HUGE weight advantage it would be so much more nimble than any of these cars.

I honestly think that when the Model 3 Ludicrious or whatever they will call it is finally announced it will blow everyone away in all aspects not just straight-line acceleration. I really think the C8 Corvette E-Ray will be the direct competition for the future Model 3 Performance. They will weigh about the same and have similar power.

 

[Apprunner]

Let's bring the conversation back closer to on topic. The Model 3 isn't really a competitor with the Model S Plaid or the Taycan. However, it will directly compete with the Kia EV6 GT and eventually with the Hyundai Ioniq 5N. Both of those cars are EXTREMELY heavy. The Kia EV6 GT is listed at 4,795 LBs on Kia's website. There is no official weight for the Hyundai Ioniq 5N yet but Car and Driver estimates it will weigh 4,900 lbs since it has about 8% more battery capacity than the EV6.

Every review I see treats these two Korean cars like they are going to be track weapons. They are grossly overweight vehicles on extremely heavy but small 255 width 21" wheels. The tires alone weigh almost 30 lbs. Never mind how much the rims weigh.

Kia's website lists the max discharge value as 481 KW(654 HP) at the battery. That definitely exceeds the 462(628 HP) value of the current Model 3 Performance. The Ioniq 5N might exceed 700 HP at the battery or even more.

Just imagine what a 4,050 lb Model 3 Ludicrious could do if it had 700 HP max discharge, a proper launch control(Brake Torque), and could hold max HP much higher in the rpm range. With 275 width rear tires and that HUGE weight advantage it would be so much more nimble than any of these cars.

I honestly think that when the Model 3 Ludicrious or whatever they will call it is finally announced it will blow everyone away in all aspects not just straight-line acceleration. I really think the C8 Corvette E-Ray will be the direct competition for the future Model 3 Performance. They will weigh about the same and have similar power.

The Ioniq 5N's battery capacity is related to a chemistry change so weight won't be that heavy. The 5N seems to be traction limited at dig but seems like its faster than the EV6 GT at higher speeds. If the new Ludicrous is faster than the 5N, it would be a happy surprise for me. As long as the Ludicrous doesn't do stupid things (like removing ventilated seats), then I'm definitely in.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

The Ioniq 5N's battery capacity is related to a chemistry change so weight won't be that heavy. The 5N seems to be traction limited at dig but seems like its faster than the EV6 GT at higher speeds. If the new Ludicrous is faster than the 5N, it would be a happy surprise for me. As long as the Ludicrous doesn't do stupid things (like removing ventilated seats), then I'm definitely in.

The regular Ioniq 5 weighs more than the regular EV6 so they are expecting the 5N to weigh more than the EV6 GT. They have said that the chemistry is different in the batteries but it still remains to be seen if they truly weigh the exact same. I would be surprised if they get 8% more capacity with zero weight gain.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

By the way, brake-managed "launch control" was a crude hack they used to use on fossil cars back in the day. It just slapped the pistons around until they worked better. Normal cars only use the brakes for wheelspin control on open differentials, no need to fight the motor if there aren't any pistons.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

By the way, brake-managed "launch control" was a crude hack they used to use on fossil cars back in the day. It just slapped the pistons around until they worked better. Normal cars only use the brakes for wheelspin control on open differentials, no need to fight the motor if there aren't any pistons.

I just want the car to launch harder. Right now it launches soft. It can push the torque higher on launch but it doesn't. Whatever you want to call it I would like it to apply more torque from the initial launch.

 

[gearchruncher]

It just slapped the pistons around until they worked better. Normal cars only use the brakes for wheelspin control on open differentials, no need to fight the motor if there aren't any pistons.

This isn't true. Weight transfer matters a lot and so does drivetrain lash. If this wasn't true, "cheetah" mode wouldn't make the car faster, yet it's needed to make a Plaid do "1.99" 0-60. Loading up the suspension against the brakes against driveshaft torque can absolutley make for a harder and more controlled launch.

But please tell me about how "slapping the pistons around" makes them "work better."

 

[easyev]

I just got back from England and there was a fair number of model three Ubers, as there are here in Toronto. Would you get into an Uber with this badge on back?!

I was bored at work:

I’m sorry it’s probably been discussed, imagined and fantasized about hundreds of times, but can you comprehend what a killer combo a model 3 Plaid version would be?

The only reason is why I think this won’t be happening for a while is it would affect the sales of the model s the model X plaid, and might affect new roadster sales as well. Imagine the immediacy of stomping on that pedal?! And the brakes would need to be fitted?

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I just got back from England and there was a fair number of model three Ubers, as there are here in Toronto. Would you get into an Uber with this badge on back?!

I was bored at work:

View attachment 1001921

I’m sorry it’s probably been discussed, imagined and fantasized about hundreds of times, but can you comprehend what a killer combo a model 3 Plaid version would be?

The only reason is why I think this won’t be happening for a while is it would affect the sales of the model s the model X plaid, and might affect new roadster sales as well. Imagine the immediacy of stomping on that pedal?! And the brakes would need to be fitted?

3 Plaid motors in a vehicle the weight of a Model 3 would just spin the tires and make it slower than a Model S Plaid.

BoostedBoiz made a 4,000 lb Plaid and it got slower until they put it on Drag tires.

The Model 3 doesn’t need Plaid tri motors. Just dual Model S LR motors would improve acceleration dramatically in the Model 3 with regular street tires. It probably wouldn’t even need a significantly larger battery either.

 

[terranx]

3 Plaid motors in a vehicle the weight of a Model 3 would just spin the tires and make it slower than a Model S Plaid.

BoostedBoiz made a 4,000 lb Plaid and it got slower until they put it on Drag tires.

The Model 3 doesn’t need Plaid tri motors. Just dual Model S LR motors would improve acceleration dramatically in the Model 3 with regular street tires. It probably wouldn’t even need a significantly larger battery either.

The torque vectoring the dual rear motors enables could be helpful even if they can't ever use the max power of the 3 motors together.

Lucid Air sapphire for example has 3 600hp motors, even though the battery is limited to 1234hp. But it does allow them to distribute that power nearly however they want.