The base 3-series sedan weighs just 3,320 lbs and I doubt it has any special weight reduction features given it is the base model (see 2017 3-Series Full Specs). Given the relative weight savings of ~200 lbs from not having an ICE and using lighter electric motor/inverter, that would give Model 3 up to 880 lbs for battery weight assuming no other weight savings are found elsewhere (4,000 lbs - 3,320 lbs + 200 lbs = 880 lbs).
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JeffK
Well-Known Member
As @SoCalGuy mentioned M3 weighs more than the base model 3 series so your theory doesn't hold water.
According to Elon there's a 20% weight reduction over the Model S. So this means according to Elon, it'll be around 3700 - 3800 lbs. Keep in mind the Bolt weighs ~3600 lbs and possibly with a larger battery than the base Model 3.
At minimum you have weight savings over the Model S in the battery, the smaller body, the lack of a full dash, heck even the lack of self presenting door handles and their motor assemblies. If they really are using a new motor design, as JB has suggested, and if rumors are true about the permanent magnet supplier, then we could be seeing more powerful motors for any given motor weight as well.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
The BMW 3-Series has indeed been defeated by multiple competitors in the segment in each and every aspect of Performance. Yet, until 2016, the 3-Series handily defeated all the rest in actual Sales in the United States. And even after losing 25.5% of its sales compared to 2015, the 3-Series still came in at #2 behind the Mercedes-Benz C-Class in the U.S. (which similarly showed a 10.4% decrease in sales). There is a 'new' 3-Series for 2017, and so far it also is getting its butt whipped something sore in comparison tests head-to-head. It is no longer the benchmark for Performance in the segment, and may not be in Sales going forward (it is still 19.8% behind YTD figures from 2015 this year).
The 3-Series is lauded for a lot that it does not deserve. In particular, it has not been especially 'lightweight' for a very long time. I looked it up once, found the curb weights for their cars going back over 35 years. Lemme see if I can find that list...
OK, the lightest version of the 3-Series for U.S. Distribution I found was the 1981 BMW 320i curb weight 1,130 kg / 2,491 lbs -- that may have been a Two-Door Sedan initially. The 2012 BMW 328i Sedan was 3,410 lbs -- nearly 1,000 lbs heavier. Today's 2017 BMW 320i is shown with a 3,295 lbs curb weight, while the 340i is at 3,555 lbs, instead.
If we presume that Tesla is somehow able to introduce a Model ☰ with at/about a 60 kWh battery pack that weighs 80% as much as the original Model S 60, which was 1,961 kg (4,323 lbs)... Then one might hope for a Model ☰ in base trim to arrive at around 1,569 kg / 3,458 lbs. And, since a Model S 75D is shown at 2,090 kg (4,608 lbs) ... A Model ☰ 75D might be as little as 1,672 kg / 3,686 lbs. Considering the heft of modern cars (thanks to all the very necessary safety equipment), that would not be especially porky.
Let's face facts here... We will never again see a street legal mass produced analog to the original Honda CR-X at around 1,700 lbs. And the BMW 3-Series will never again weigh under even 2,800 lbs, let alone under 2,500 lbs, no matter how much carbon fiber you throw at the problem. In the real world, even 'small' cars are much larger than they used to be, both for comfort & convenience, as well as life & safety reasons. That increased weight has an effect on fuel economy and performance. That plays into the hands of electric vehicles, by reducing the obvious effects of battery pack weight.
Since the Tesla Model ☰ will have a larger cabin, bigger cargo volume, and longer wheelbase than BMW 3-Series, I have no problem with the notion it may weigh a bit more than the estimates above. I figure a range of 3,700 lbs to 4,100 lbs will be fine. And you know what? That happens to be the exact same range as the 3-Series from a couple of generations ago, once you include the wagon and convertible configurations.
Yet, somehow... The enhanced porkocity of German vehicles is never, ever a problem for automotive journalists. They sing their praises by rote, speaking of their predictability, and road holding at the limit, and communication through the steering wheel, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... [FIDDLESTIX]. I'm sick of the excuses. Really.
I strongly suspect for a lot of them, they are unwilling to simply admit they like driving affordable, approachable, accessible cars with German badges more than anything else. They can never quite put their finger on what exactly it is they prefer, it is and remains undefined. That's why for over 25 years I have been frustrated by their final 'Verdict' having nothing whatsoever to do with 'The NUMBERS' generated on the test track -- the very place where they claim the 3-Series shines best. Because the 3-Series has been getting its butt handed to it by The NUMBERS for a very long time. It has only been recently that they have begun to lose on the 'undefined' nature of driving as well. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with their move to an electric steering setup instead of pure mechanical -- because the cars that beat them have electric steering too.
When it comes to weight, the copious amounts of torque generated instantly by electric motors makes such concerns pretty much moot in the grand majority of driving situations. Stop and go 25 MPH to 45 MPH city traffic, or 65 MPH to 85 MPH highway traffic. Almost no one takes their daily driver to the track. A few more may break out a map and trace a route through the mountainous twisties, where guard rails are trees and boulders. And if anyone actually enjoys driving at all, I'm sure the experience of being behind the wheel of a Tesla Model ☰ will make them smile, grin, and laugh aloud far more often than they will scowl, frown, and curse to the heavens -- no matter the course before them.
I am certain that Tesla has done their due diligence, to determine the best handling characteristics of all these vehicles, to balance and evaluate them against each other, and especially against the BMW 3-Series, in order to determine the best possible 'feel' behind the wheel. I expect there will be selectable modes for handling to suit the preference of the driver. Hopefully this will be enough to satisfy gearheads everywhere. If not ? Well, screw 'em. ;-)
The 3-Series is lauded for a lot that it does not deserve. In particular, it has not been especially 'lightweight' for a very long time. I looked it up once, found the curb weights for their cars going back over 35 years. Lemme see if I can find that list...
OK, the lightest version of the 3-Series for U.S. Distribution I found was the 1981 BMW 320i curb weight 1,130 kg / 2,491 lbs -- that may have been a Two-Door Sedan initially. The 2012 BMW 328i Sedan was 3,410 lbs -- nearly 1,000 lbs heavier. Today's 2017 BMW 320i is shown with a 3,295 lbs curb weight, while the 340i is at 3,555 lbs, instead.
If we presume that Tesla is somehow able to introduce a Model ☰ with at/about a 60 kWh battery pack that weighs 80% as much as the original Model S 60, which was 1,961 kg (4,323 lbs)... Then one might hope for a Model ☰ in base trim to arrive at around 1,569 kg / 3,458 lbs. And, since a Model S 75D is shown at 2,090 kg (4,608 lbs) ... A Model ☰ 75D might be as little as 1,672 kg / 3,686 lbs. Considering the heft of modern cars (thanks to all the very necessary safety equipment), that would not be especially porky.
Let's face facts here... We will never again see a street legal mass produced analog to the original Honda CR-X at around 1,700 lbs. And the BMW 3-Series will never again weigh under even 2,800 lbs, let alone under 2,500 lbs, no matter how much carbon fiber you throw at the problem. In the real world, even 'small' cars are much larger than they used to be, both for comfort & convenience, as well as life & safety reasons. That increased weight has an effect on fuel economy and performance. That plays into the hands of electric vehicles, by reducing the obvious effects of battery pack weight.
Since the Tesla Model ☰ will have a larger cabin, bigger cargo volume, and longer wheelbase than BMW 3-Series, I have no problem with the notion it may weigh a bit more than the estimates above. I figure a range of 3,700 lbs to 4,100 lbs will be fine. And you know what? That happens to be the exact same range as the 3-Series from a couple of generations ago, once you include the wagon and convertible configurations.
Yet, somehow... The enhanced porkocity of German vehicles is never, ever a problem for automotive journalists. They sing their praises by rote, speaking of their predictability, and road holding at the limit, and communication through the steering wheel, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... [FIDDLESTIX]. I'm sick of the excuses. Really.
I strongly suspect for a lot of them, they are unwilling to simply admit they like driving affordable, approachable, accessible cars with German badges more than anything else. They can never quite put their finger on what exactly it is they prefer, it is and remains undefined. That's why for over 25 years I have been frustrated by their final 'Verdict' having nothing whatsoever to do with 'The NUMBERS' generated on the test track -- the very place where they claim the 3-Series shines best. Because the 3-Series has been getting its butt handed to it by The NUMBERS for a very long time. It has only been recently that they have begun to lose on the 'undefined' nature of driving as well. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with their move to an electric steering setup instead of pure mechanical -- because the cars that beat them have electric steering too.
When it comes to weight, the copious amounts of torque generated instantly by electric motors makes such concerns pretty much moot in the grand majority of driving situations. Stop and go 25 MPH to 45 MPH city traffic, or 65 MPH to 85 MPH highway traffic. Almost no one takes their daily driver to the track. A few more may break out a map and trace a route through the mountainous twisties, where guard rails are trees and boulders. And if anyone actually enjoys driving at all, I'm sure the experience of being behind the wheel of a Tesla Model ☰ will make them smile, grin, and laugh aloud far more often than they will scowl, frown, and curse to the heavens -- no matter the course before them.
COMPETITORS WEIGHTS
3,295 ___ BMW 320i
3,320 ___ Jaguar XE
3,360 ___ Alfa Romeo Giulia*
3,373 ___ Cadillac ATS
3,483 ___ AUDI A4
3,583 ___ Lexus IS
3,594 ___ Mercedes-Benz C300
3,748 ___ Acura TLX
3,748 ___ Infiniti Q50*
* Midsize
3,295 ___ BMW 320i
3,320 ___ Jaguar XE
3,360 ___ Alfa Romeo Giulia*
3,373 ___ Cadillac ATS
3,483 ___ AUDI A4
3,583 ___ Lexus IS
3,594 ___ Mercedes-Benz C300
3,748 ___ Acura TLX
3,748 ___ Infiniti Q50*
* Midsize
I am certain that Tesla has done their due diligence, to determine the best handling characteristics of all these vehicles, to balance and evaluate them against each other, and especially against the BMW 3-Series, in order to determine the best possible 'feel' behind the wheel. I expect there will be selectable modes for handling to suit the preference of the driver. Hopefully this will be enough to satisfy gearheads everywhere. If not ? Well, screw 'em. ;-)
JeffK
Well-Known Member
The current generation of F3X 3 and 4 series and to some extend, the F8X M3/M4's, are heavily criticized for its departure from traditional BMW driving characteristics. It feels more like a Lexus than a true BMW, and that's coming from a lot of enthusiasts, long time BMW fans, and medias. I had a F80 M3 for 2 years, and the feel and fun factors were not as good as my E46 330i from 13 years ago, even though on paper the F80 M3 is a significantly better car. However, this is why current generation of 3 and 4 series are selling so well. It's comfortable, fast, and pretty darn reliable. It's also why I don't think Tesla should go after the 3/4 series (at least what traditional 3 or 4 series market) with the Model 3. Instead, make it a good compact family car with the excellent EV driving experience inherited from Model S and X, and go from there. Heck, I bet the car will sell a ton more if it's more of an EV version of high end Accord than low end 3 series (Not many buys 320i. Most 328i ends up near $50K).
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
That looks just as fun as the Ring. They should make that a closed circuit and pay-to-race like the Ring 
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Well, it is a bunch of fun... Except for the 'WARNING: FALLING ROCKS' signs, and the almost mandatory mud slides whenever it rains, and the complete lack of guard rails in numerous places with tremendous cliffside drops, and the 'locals' who completely ignore the posted speed limits and zoom around you in their Porsches and stuff... These are all public roads, and I mapped out this particular course myself long before there was a such thing as Google Maps using an ancient technology called a 'Thomas Guide' map book and a highlighter. I think the only place where racing is allowed as a closed circuit on surface streets in Los Angeles County is for the Long Beach Grand Prix now.That looks just as fun as the Ring. They should make that a closed circuit and pay-to-race like the Ring
I have not found videos of anyone else doing this full run, they usually only take the Stunt Road leg from Mulholland to the Piuma/Rambla Pacifico intersection. The whole area is fun, though... And if you look closely, you may recognize some parts of the roads from car chase scenes in old television shows like 'MANNIX' and 'The ROCKFORD Files'.
Oh! But remember... This is a SECRET! So don't tell anybody!
Hi, everybody. I created one more poll about this subject. The difference is that in this new poll you can enter any number you want. After we find the correct answer, the accuracy percentage of your answer will be calculated which will then be used as part of a larger predictions competition.
Predictions Competition Poll #6: Curb weight of the base Model 3 (RWD, small battery)?
Predictions Competition Poll #6: Curb weight of the base Model 3 (RWD, small battery)?
timk225
Active Member
All the amateur auto engineers here need to remember that 20% smaller DOES NOT equal 20% lighter. Most of the basic systems will be of comparable weight. Frame, drivetrain, suspension, brakes, interior, bumpers, airbags, etc. Plus this much praised glass roof will be way heavier than sheet metal.
The 20% smaller thing will be mostly sheet metal. Some shorter frame components too, but not much.
In the end, the 3 won't be more than 500 pounds lighter than the S. That is my guess. And if it does come in under 4000 pounds, it won't be by much. 3980 lbs or so.
What's the weight difference in an S with a fully charged battery vs. an almost empty battery? What do 75KW worth of electrons weigh?
The 20% smaller thing will be mostly sheet metal. Some shorter frame components too, but not much.
In the end, the 3 won't be more than 500 pounds lighter than the S. That is my guess. And if it does come in under 4000 pounds, it won't be by much. 3980 lbs or so.
What's the weight difference in an S with a fully charged battery vs. an almost empty battery? What do 75KW worth of electrons weigh?
Good point! What will it weight with a full battery?
Remember, electrons are heavy -- thats why they need those enormous telephone poles to support the power lines.
Weight difference between full and empty battery is not that much.
You can use E = m * c^2 to calculate.
E = 7.5e4 wh * 3600 J/ wh = 2.7e8 J
m = 2.7e8 J / (3.0e8 m/s)^2 = 3.0e-9 kg
JeffK
Well-Known Member
All the amateur forum posters should remember that Elon said "20% lighter"
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Oh, really? Hmmm... Here is a comparison of curb weights for base versions of cars from premium traditional automobile manufacturers:
LBS _____ VEHICLE
3,450 ___ AUDI A4
3,858 ___ AUDI A6
4,464 ___ AUDI A8 L
3,295 ___ BMW 320i
3,746 ___ BMW 530i
4,195 ___ BMW 740i
3,417 ___ Mercedes-Benz C300
3,792 ___ Mercedes-Benz E300
4,773 ___ Mercedes-Benz S550
3,450 ___ AUDI A4
3,858 ___ AUDI A6
4,464 ___ AUDI A8 L
3,295 ___ BMW 320i
3,746 ___ BMW 530i
4,195 ___ BMW 740i
3,417 ___ Mercedes-Benz C300
3,792 ___ Mercedes-Benz E300
4,773 ___ Mercedes-Benz S550
It seems from your comments that you feel the Tesla Model ☰ will be placed against the A6, 5-Series, and E-Class within Tesla's product line. That's interesting, because Tesla has been pretty clear that Model ☰ would target the A4, 3-Series, and C-Class instead. It is true that I expect the Model ☰ to achieve a Midsize rating as an EPA Size Classification (like the A6, 5-Series, and E-Class), but that is based on usable interior volume for passengers and cargo. So I expect the use of an electric drivetrain will be an advantage for the Model ☰ over the Compact cars (A4, 3-Series, and C-Class) it will be placed against. I do not expect that will result in a tremendous weight penalty against them, though.
Now, I may not be an automotive engineer, but I am enough of an automotive enthusiast to remember how professional automotive journalists used to regularly poo-poo any vehicle that weighed in excess of 3,600 lbs -- unless it was a German 'sports sedan'. Miraculously, somehow, the German cars always 'felt right' and never had any problems with seeming too large or being ponderous or heavy in turns. Also, somehow, even when the German cars lost 'by the numbers' when it came to everything from 0-60 MPH & 1/4 mile runs and skidpad & slalom roadholding to passenger/cargo volume and fuel economy -- the Germans always came out on top of the scoring in head-to-head comparison tests. Generally speaking, those writers would claim it wasn't so much what they could do that made them 'the best' it was how they felt while doing it.
Ultimately, knowing the goal for Tesla, I would argue the other way around... That the Tesla Model ☰ in base trim will not weigh over 500 lbs more than the base versions of its direct competitors. That should be enough to be competitive, since the higher end versions of A4, 3-Series, and C-Class definitely cross that ~3,795 lbs threshold at their upper limits when fully equipped.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
There is a theory that the Honda Accord is meant to be a front wheel drive analog to the BMW 3-Series.
2014 10Best Cars - 10Best Cars
The Tesla Model ☰ will outsell the 3-Series for many of the reasons that the Accord does. But not due to being wimped out or gimped. People who actually comparison shop and do in-depth research prior to choosing what to buy will get the Model ☰. In most cases, it will not be an impulse buy, and despite criticism from Naysayers, the Model ☰ will not be some passing fad as people decide to get 'the next big thing'. I think that traditional automobile manufacturers overlook the power of word-of-mouth when it comes to marketing. As each new Model ☰ owner shows off the car to Friends and Family, and explains how driving electric has changed their lives in a real sense, demonstrated first hand, a lot more Customers will come Tesla's way. And they will come from all directions, above, below, and all around its intended market segment. The real shame is that companies that have fought an uphill battle of survival for decades to offer an alternative to Honda Accord and Toyota Camry will see those efforts wasted as more and more potential Customers go even further up-market to acquire a Tesla Model ☰ in the years to come, where they will be forever lost to those who offer ICE only vehicles.
Zaphod
Galaxy President (former)
I thought he said 20% in regards to dimension. I don't recall him referencing specifically towards the weight.All the amateur forum posters should remember that Elon said "20% lighter"
