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Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors

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I would be interested to know whether base load plants always run full out. I know that you can ramp coal plants, I've seen curves from German coal plants that can ramp from 20 to 100 percent in a couple of hours.
Yes coal is baseload, and load following, they can and do ramp up and down, usually over night, but not as fast as NG plants. I think during the day most coal is maxed out for day time load. A certain portion of hydro is also baseload, but some is kept in reserve for peak loads as well.
 
Interesting from eledille's link:

So to minimise these impacts for the last 25 years EdF has used in each PWR reactor some less absorptive "grey" control rods which weigh less from a neutronic point of view than ordinary control rods and they allow sustained variation in power output. This means that RTE can depend on flexible load following from the nuclear fleet to contribute to regulation in these three respects:

1. Primary power regulation for system stability (when frequency varies, power must be automatically adjusted by the turbine),
2. Secondary power regulation related to trading contracts,
3. Adjusting power in response to demand (decrease from 100% during the day, down to 50% or less during the night, etc.)
PWR plants are very flexible at the beginning of their cycle, with fresh fuel and high reserve reactivity. But when the fuel cycle is around 65% through these reactors are less flexible, and they take a rapidly diminishing part in the third, load-following, aspect above. When they are 90% through the fuel cycle, they only take part in frequency regulation, and essentially no power variation is allowed (unless necessary for safety). So at the very end of the cycle, they are run at steady power output and do not regulate or load-follow until the next refueling outage. RTE has continuous oversight of all French plants and determines which plants adjust output in relation to the three considerations above, and by how much.
 
Interesting from eledille's link:
That's very interesting. Thanks for pointing it out, I just scanned it quickly and didn't spot that.

Doug_G: They have modified the RBMKs to be able to scram more quickly and to have a negative void coefficient (i.e. more boiling will now cause the reactor to slow down instead of speed up). But the graphite moderator still creates the possibility of a reactor core fire.

Btw, I think we need a thread for general discussion of nuclear power and a thread for the integral fast reactor. A lot of this recent interesting discussion has nothing to do with liquid fluoride thorium reactors.
 
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The great thing about nuclear power production is it looks great on paper. So did Uranium fission. The problems are 1) building reactors that last long, are inherently safe (even in case of operator error), need little maintenance 2) run a nuclear fuel cycle 3) safe disposal of nuclear waste.
Sorry guys. Nuclear had it's change. All these objectives could have been achieved with 1960 nuclear technology. None of them were. Why do you think changing the fuel type will change this?
There is one nuclear reactor, inherently safe, maintenance free, million years fuel included, no waste. It comes at NO cost and its energy is easily distributed to all consumers, although the reactor is located some 90m miles away from all inhabited regions. I don't see viable competition to that one.

Nuclear power sources should be reserved for interstellar travel not for running your AC.

99% of nuclear research performed in the world up to the 2000s was driven by military interests.
Even the latest iteration of 4th Gen nuclear, IFR reactors were invested on because they were a great source of plutonium, IFRs could be tuned to produce less energy and maximum breeding capability (but GE conveniently hides that from the public in their S-PRISM presentations).
LFTR is among the very few nuclear techs out there that work with the worst nuclear material for weapons, Thorium and Uranium 233. So it gets ZERO USA public funding.
In fact the only reason molten salt / Throrium reactors were pursued in the USA was because before ICBMs were perfected, the US Air Force wanted nuclear powered bombers. Bombers that could stay aloft for a month. And the only nuclear technology that stands some chance of being possible for that application was molten salt / Thorium fueled reactors, exactly because they are extremely safe, compact and reliable.
With about 1% of total funding nuclear energy from 1950 to 1970, Oak Ridge National Labs managed to make a research reactor that operated for a total of 22000 hours, that did exactly what the scientists predicted it would do.
LFTR reactors don't require advanced computers to operate, their safety characteristics are from the basic physics in the reactor design instead.
The biggest difficulty in pursuing this technology is exactly the economics, it's too cheap to build and operate, why would GE invest on something that would steal it's profits on uranium nuclear, wind turbines, natural gas power ?
The Germany clean energy plan is projected to cost one trillion euros.
Kirk Sorensen quit his job at NASA to pursue this. It reminds me of a guy that put his millions into Tesla, SpaceX and Solar City.
To be conservative, it seems like he needs less than half a billion US$ get the research reactor done, finalize design and certify. Plus some billions to build the assembly line to mass produce them. But there's no point in doing this unless we can silence those that continue to believe solar and wind are an economical solution to our problems.
Perhaps we'll need to see the ocean rise another 50cm (2 ft) before we take the problem seriously, and realize the only solution is if we can make renewables cheaper than coal, cheaper than natural gas. I think Germany gave us one trillion reasons why this equation isn't true.
 
I'm not sure renewables need to be cheaper than coal and NG to be successful. I think most people could handle a slight increase in their monthly billing if necessary, which in most cases could be compensated for by some conservation efforts. Solar and wind need effective storage solutions, i.e. cheap batteries, just like EV's.
 
I am not qualified in any manner whatsoever to opine on either the physics, practicality or the history of this technology. I can, though, comment on the business aspect of it. So -

Macpacheco, the appropriate answer - and an extremely strong answer: you must be able to counter it or your conspiracy theory dissolves - to your
Why would GE invest on something that would steal it's profits on uranium nuclear, wind turbines, natural gas power?
is that because if GE did not, then Westinghouse (at that time), Toshiba, IHI, Siemens, Brown Boveri, Asea or Alsthom would have.
 
I'm not sure renewables need to be cheaper than coal and NG to be successful. I think most people could handle a slight increase in their monthly billing if necessary, which in most cases could be compensated for by some conservation efforts. Solar and wind need effective storage solutions, i.e. cheap batteries, just like EV's.

Just because first world citizens are willing to do it doesn't mean the big fish are.
China + India have 2,5 billion people. If they start consuming just 25% of energy per capta than the developed world average, their extra emissions would be the equivalent of two sets of (North America, Europe, Japan and Australia) !
Even if North America and Europe could zero emissions tomorrow, China and India will still destroy mother earth with the current increase in coal burning.
And if coal drops to half the price, countries will burn even more of it.
This has to come from economics, subsidies are good to increase manufacturing scale and bring prices down.
I heard a statement that shocked me. I'm pro renewables, and I consider nuclear one such source. But one of the core pro nuclear guys stated that the total energy content that goes into a solar panel is more than the solar panel will produce in raw electrons over its lifetime. Even if the solar panel will produce twice as many electrons as the total energy that went in, it's still scandalous in my book.
 
I heard a statement that shocked me. I'm pro renewables, and I consider nuclear one such source. But one of the core pro nuclear guys stated that the total energy content that goes into a solar panel is more than the solar panel will produce in raw electrons over its lifetime. Even if the solar panel will produce twice as many electrons as the total energy that went in, it's still scandalous in my book.

Not scandalous, just inaccurate.

The energy payback for modern solar PV systems (the whole system, not just the panels) occurs in 0.5 to 2 years, depending on the technology and location where it's deployed. The system lifetime of 30 years means that 15 to 60 times more energy is produced than was required to produce it.
http://www.bnl.gov/pv/files/pdf/236_PE_Magazine_Fthenakis_2_10_12.pdf
 
I read up on LFTR physics and it sounds promising. It offers the chance to burn all the nasty remains of uran/plutonium fission reactors: radioactive waste, partially spent fuel rods, even depleted uranium. And the waste is much less hazardous and must be controlled a mere 300 years (did I just write that? :eek:) instead of a quarter million.

Still there is the problem that a sizable investment is necessary to put that technology in practical use and operate it. It was pointed out correctly that governments fed nuclear-as-we-know-it to today's size, with military usage in their mind. Even the German government which vowed to stay away of nuclear arms.

Then there is the traveling wave reactor technology, which is backed by Bill Gates (check out his TED speech).

Then there is fusion like the ones explored in Tokamak, ITER, or may be LPP designs.

All nuclear technologies require Government backing to have the necessary permits and entities in place to run a different nuclear fuel cycle. IOW they need public/private funding and massive intervention by the Govt to hold a candle against decentralized renewable generation and storage. I see governments already overspending on too many new energy projects, and cleaning up the costly misdeeds of existing ones.

A word on that trillion for renewables in Germany (the "Energiewende"): That's peanuts in comparison to what nuclear already cost us, plus what nuclear waste disposal and plant decommissioning will cost us in the future. Plus all the nuclear plants here run without insurance that covers the damage of a Fukushima like event. Mainly because the insurance sum would destroy their economic basis (read: 60 €-cents per kWh)
 
Just because first world citizens are willing to do it doesn't mean the big fish are.
China + India have 2,5 billion people. If they start consuming just 25% of energy per capta than the developed world average, their extra emissions would be the equivalent of two sets of (North America, Europe, Japan and Australia) !
In developing areas solar has the advantage of being local an not requiring transmission lines to be built, assuming local storage as well. If you're miles or hundreds of miles from the grid solar and battery storage is probably the cheapest solution.
 
Energy - Electricity from Solar Panels Transforms Lives in Rural Bangladesh

In developing areas solar has the advantage of being local an not requiring transmission lines to be built, assuming local storage as well. If you're miles or hundreds of miles from the grid solar and battery storage is probably the cheapest solution.

Or if you have a grid, but it's unreliable. In developing countries like Bangladesh, a key benefit of small home solar is in the replacing of kerosene lamps, just like 19th century developed world with consequent reduction in fires and respirstory disease. They're also using it for irrigation, street lighting and government buildings. Most Bangladeshi solar will be large systems.

From the link I posted above, the key driver for home solar in Bangladesh is charging cellphones. Again, a low-cost network.
 
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Solar also doesn't require highly trained, highly disciplined workers. Where are you going to get qualified nuclear power plant operators in most of the third world? Or even the first world? Very few people are being trained in nuclear engineering today.
Homer-Simpson-nuclear.jpg

http://www.laideafeliz.es/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Homer-Simpson-nuclear.jpg
 
The monetary payback maybe in 2 years (with subsidies and feed in tariffs). What you don't realize is it was built using coal electricity, not solar panels. New solar panels aren't being installed at the factory to offset coal consumption, they are being sold to countries willing to pay more for solar than coal.
And that the solar boom is 100% sustained by subsidies.

The unfair practice is to quote solar cost by kWh. It ignores the cost of backing up solar with natural gas (in the best possible case).
That's why I was surprised to see that even the most die hard solar+wind Germans accept that their plan is really a one trillion euro plan.

We just can't ignore economics. You can offset wind and solar as much as you want with subsidies, but wind and solar must be accounted for at full price, with zero subsidies, except for feed in tariffs.

High efficiency natural gas thermal has 60% efficiency. But it can't load follow wind and solar. Instead we end up using 30% efficient natural gas to load follow.
It would be much better environmentally and economically to just migrate all natural gas to latest generation combined cycle instead.

Its possible that the math is outdated. Everybody tends to use their favorite technology with 5 years ahead projections and their criticized technology with 5 years old data.
What I want is a real solution to climate change, not a jobs program. The problem is the current wind+solar plan is much more of a jobs program than a real solution.
 
Just because first world citizens are willing to do it doesn't mean the big fish are.
China + India have 2,5 billion people. If they start consuming just 25% of energy per capta than the developed world average, their extra emissions would be the equivalent of two sets of (North America, Europe, Japan and Australia) !
Even if North America and Europe could zero emissions tomorrow, China and India will still destroy mother earth with the current increase in coal burning.
And if coal drops to half the price, countries will burn even more of it.
This has to come from economics, subsidies are good to increase manufacturing scale and bring prices down.
I heard a statement that shocked me. I'm pro renewables, and I consider nuclear one such source. But one of the core pro nuclear guys stated that the total energy content that goes into a solar panel is more than the solar panel will produce in raw electrons over its lifetime. Even if the solar panel will produce twice as many electrons as the total energy that went in, it's still scandalous in my book.

So in other words you don't develop clean technics because then some 'poorer' countries will use more of the cheaper and dirty techniques? Wshould try and make a cleaner grid, cleaner factories and a sustainable society.. right now that's in many ways just not true. If you wait for the perfect solution to start you'll never start.

I don't know if the solar panel myth is true or not, but you read everything in the internet. There are so many informations good and bad that it's hard to choose wich is right and wrong. There was an article that Gasoline need over a 110% of electricity equivalent of power that would be needed to move an electric car just by being refined. Other articles stated 40%...
 
I'm pro renewables, and I consider nuclear one such source. But one of the core pro nuclear guys stated that the total energy content that goes into a solar panel is more than the solar panel will produce in raw electrons over its lifetime. Even if the solar panel will produce twice as many electrons as the total energy that went in, it's still scandalous in my book.

That's not even close to being true... over 20 years the average PV system will produce ~4-10x the amount of energy required to manufacture it.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

Manufacturing efficiency is always improving and the panels will very likely last longer than 20 years.
http://www.us.schott.com/photovolta...ute-long-term-study-schott-solar-26-years.pdf