Keep phantom drain under control

[stopcrazypp]

Thank you all for your replies! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into helping me.

More necessary info to my car.
I do not use preconditioning. The car is usually in a heated garage, so I tend not to need it.
I have never used Sentry, it’s another feature I feel I do not need. Privacy laws in my country also significantly reduce its usefulness, should anything actually happen and be recorded.
The car does not have any optional software packages. As such, Smart Summon is not an option on my car.

I am not trying to say that this photos represents the stable, long-term coefficient of phantom drain of my car. Nevertheless it is a snapshot of a consistent condition I am confronted with every winter since I own the car, January 2020.
8.5% drain for an undisturbed car in temperatures around the 32-40F range within just 23 hours seems steep and out of the ordinary to me.

How much miles or km did you actually lose (keeping in mind some of it may recover as battery warms up, some range loss is temporary)? Again energy screen may be wrong in terms of what category it put it in. Also, is the car plugged in or not? Battery needs to warm up to charge, so it may result in energy waste when it does do (it also does that when awake to discharge, but it should be less than when charging).

Another possibility is your 12V battery is on the way out. This may make the car have to wake more often to charge it.

 

[cappo3]

How about turning off any data connection?

You are right, I think we mentioned this already... I keep forgetting! Still, it would not explain why this drain does not happen when the car is in a warmer environment. I'll do my best to remember to deactivate the mobile access to the car the next time I use it, just as a further test. Or do you mean something else?

How much miles or km did you actually lose (keeping in mind some of it may recover as battery warms up, some range loss is temporary)? Again energy screen may be wrong in terms of what category it put it in. Also, is the car plugged in or not? Battery needs to warm up to charge, so it may result in energy waste when it does do (it also does that when awake to discharge, but it should be less than when charging).

Another possibility is your 12V battery is on the way out. This may make the car have to wake more often to charge it.

I thought the rated range was a unity of energy, not distance. Pretty much a direct translation of the shown SoC percentage. I never use that measurement, any specific reason why it should be any different than the simple percentage?
The car is not plugged in and not preconditioned. I just park and leave.
I thought about the 12v battery. On a three year-old car it is indeed possible. But since I've experienced this behaviour of high drain since the very beginning of my ownership (I bought the car new), I would not bet on that.

 

[KenC]

You are right, I think we mentioned this already... I keep forgetting! Still, it would not explain why this drain does not happen when the car is in a warmer environment. I'll do my best to remember to deactivate the mobile access to the car the next time I use it, just as a further test. Or do you mean something else?


I thought the rated range was a unity of energy, not distance. Pretty much a direct translation of the shown SoC percentage. I never use that measurement, any specific reason why it should be any different than the simple percentage?
The car is not plugged in and not preconditioned. I just park and leave.
I thought about the 12v battery. On a three year-old car it is indeed possible. But since I've experienced this behaviour of high drain since the very beginning of my ownership (I bought the car new), I would not bet on that.

Turn off data, just as another test.

Something else to consider, since you say this only happens in cold temps, not warmer ones, is that the battery can lose estimated SOC, when the battery cools. So, if you drive somewhere and park at 50% SOC, then the battery gets colder overnight, it may show additional SOC loss, that's just my theory.

 

[3sr+buyer]

I thought the rated range was a unity of energy, not distance. Pretty much a direct translation of the shown SoC percentage. I never use that measurement, any specific reason why it should be any different than the simple percentage?

Rated miles will show the effect of battery capacity loss over time. So if a 272 mile RWD car has lost 3% of its battery capacity, it will show 264 miles at 100%.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You are right, I think we mentioned this already... I keep forgetting! Still, it would not explain why this drain does not happen when the car is in a warmer environment. I'll do my best to remember to deactivate the mobile access to the car the next time I use it, just as a further test. Or do you mean something else?


I thought the rated range was a unity of energy, not distance. Pretty much a direct translation of the shown SoC percentage. I never use that measurement, any specific reason why it should be any different than the simple percentage?
The car is not plugged in and not preconditioned. I just park and leave.
I thought about the 12v battery. On a three year-old car it is indeed possible. But since I've experienced this behaviour of high drain since the very beginning of my ownership (I bought the car new), I would not bet on that.

Rated range goes down as the car ages even when charged to 100% SOC. It's an indirect measure of battery capacity. It also gives better granularity than SOC.

I looked up other examples in cold weather, this SR+ lost 9% (and estimated excluding Sentry probably 5% or 44km) parked 16 hours in the cold.
Tesla Model 3 Range Loss Overnight, Unplugged In Sub-Zero Temperatures

The reason why range loss would be worse parking out in cold weather is because every time the car wakes up to charge the battery, the HV battery needs to be brought up to operating temperature. This means higher overhead losses than in optimal conditions.

As for the 12V battery, you could have had a defective or low capacity 12V battery from start. I remember some of the earlier Model 3s had a batch of 12V batteries that went bad very quickly (although probably closer to 2018 or thereabouts).

 

[cappo3]

Turn off data, just as another test.

I am finally going into this experiment. I disabled the "allow Mobile Access" in the car's menu, for which I needed to enter my Tesla account password.
I though the app on my phone would have shown me no info whatsoever, since it wouldn't connect to the car at all. Indeed the SoC does update. Is the app then still able to connect to the car, but simply blocking information?

 

[stopcrazypp]

I am finally going into this experiment. I disabled the "allow Mobile Access" in the car's menu, for which I needed to enter my Tesla account password.
I though the app on my phone would have shown me no info whatsoever, since it wouldn't connect to the car at all. Indeed the SoC does update. Is the app then still able to connect to the car, but simply blocking information?

Phone key should still work given it uses bluetooth, but not sure if the SOC is transmitted over bluetooth too. There's a few basic functions that don't require the internet connection (like locking/unlocking car, popping frunk or trunk).

 

[rrolsbe]

Rated range goes down as the car ages even when charged to 100% SOC. It's an indirect measure of battery capacity. It also gives better granularity than SOC.

I looked up other examples in cold weather, this SR+ lost 9% (and estimated excluding Sentry probably 5% or 44km) parked 16 hours in the cold.
Tesla Model 3 Range Loss Overnight, Unplugged In Sub-Zero Temperatures

The reason why range loss would be worse parking out in cold weather is because every time the car wakes up to charge the battery, the HV battery needs to be brought up to operating temperature. This means higher overhead losses than in optimal conditions.

As for the 12V battery, you could have had a defective or low capacity 12V battery from start. I remember some of the earlier Model 3s had a batch of 12V batteries that went bad very quickly (although probably closer to 2018 or thereabouts).

You could be correct but I do not believe the HV battery is actively brought up to temp, power supplied to the Stator(s), while the 12V battery is being topped off even if the HV battery cells are VERY cold. It could warm very slightly during the top off period due to the pumps and PCS 12V charging operation. Has anyone verified this with Scan My Tesla while plugged into shore power and not?

 

[AAKEE]

You could be correct but I do not believe the HV battery is actively brought up to temp, power supplied to the Stator(s), while the 12V battery is being topped off even if the HV battery cells are VERY cold. It could warm very slightly during the top off period due to the pumps and PCS 12V charging operation. Has anyone verified this with Scan My Tesla while plugged into shore power and not?

Your’e right.

It does not heat the HV battery to charge the LV battery.
Lithium batteries dislike being charged at low temperatures(sub freezing) but delivering/discharging at decent rates is not a problem.

I have:
-Scan My tesla with a tanlet permanently mounted in fron of the sterring wheel, showing SMT Data.
-Scan my tesla sending data to teslalogger whenever the car is awake and a small computer at home collecting all logs.
-Teslafi account.

I recently had my car standing outside at work for almost one week connected (about -22C to -10C during this week). The HV battery was not heated once between the charging finished and I preheated/topped of the charging for the drive home.

I also had my car standing outside not connected for 6 days (-20C to +2C but mainly -10C or coldet) after the charge at arrival. The HV battery was not heated once between the charging finished and I preheated/topped of the charging for the drive home.

In both cases the battery temp ended up close to the ouside ambient temp.

I’m quite sure I have the sufficient data logs to prove this.

There is a lot of myths about battery heating.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

every time the car wakes up to charge the battery, the HV battery needs to be brought up to operating temperature. This means higher overhead losses than in optimal conditions.

I don’t think this happens either.

Probably the larger shifts are due to larger BMS re-estimations, possibly the effect of blue snowflake (never seen it but doesn’t it temporarily reduce the range shown?), etc. Or there may be no actual difference at all.

There is no need to bring HV battery up to temp - works sufficiently well when below freezing, just don’t attempt to charge it.

 

[AAKEE]

I don’t think this happens either.

Probably the larger shifts are due to larger BMS re-estimations, possibly the effect of blue snowflake (never seen it but doesn’t it temporarily reduce the range shown?),

If Scan My Tesla is used, the normal SOC is shown but the on screen reduces the SOC percentage with the cold battery. I actually newer have checked the shown range in this case but I would think it follows the displayed SOC.
The BMS do not seem to have any issue with calculating the correct SOC.
The lower displayed SOC is probably to show a more correct estimate of the possible range. The cold battery need to be heated so of the 55% real SOC, only 52-53% or so can be used to move the car and the difference is extra heating losses to heat the battery.

As an example I have parked with 55%, left the car 1-2days in very cold weather and seen 51-53% displayed on screen depending on the battery temp, but the BMS/scan my tesla has shown the 55% (or maybe 54.8% or so).
Teslafi do show the same as the BMS, so we would se 55% in teslafi as in SMT.

etc. Or there may be no actual difference at all.

There is no need to bring HV battery up to temp - works sufficiently well when below freezing, just don’t attempt to charge it.

Ypu can absolutely charge if you have the blue snowflake.
Tesla handles this automatically. Initially the batteey only heats, no charging, until the battery is warm enough. Charging commences during the heating of the battery somwhere around 3C or so.

There is no risk for the battery in this case.
The BMS Max charge curve is taking batt temp + SOC in account to set the maximum allowed charging power.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There is no risk for the battery in this case.
The BMS Max charge curve is taking batt temp + SOC in account to set the maximum allowed charging power.

Yes I was not suggesting to not attempt to charge it - even though that is what I said (word for word, but of course not what I meant). Of course Tesla will take care of the details. My point (in context) was just that no energy is needed to be input into the battery unless you need to charge it.

 

[AAKEE]

Yes I was not suggesting to not attempt to charge it - even though that is what I said (word for word, but of course not what I meant). Of course Tesla will take care of the details. My point (in context) was just that no energy is needed to be input into the battery unless you need to charge it.

Yes I was quite safe with that you had that under 100% control. Just answered so no one else got it out of the context and got it wrong.
Killing myths, you know

 

[stopcrazypp]

I don’t think this happens either.

Probably the larger shifts are due to larger BMS re-estimations, possibly the effect of blue snowflake (never seen it but doesn’t it temporarily reduce the range shown?), etc. Or there may be no actual difference at all.

I remember they showed blue in the percent bar for SOC lost to cold (might not anymore), but it doesn't show in the car regardless in the dash (according to above). So to the user it appears permanently gone when they get in the car.

There is no need to bring HV battery up to temp - works sufficiently well when below freezing, just don’t attempt to charge it.

Yes I know that the charge vs discharge is different. For charge ~0C is the operating temp, for discharge ~20C is the operating temp for NCA cells. That's why I asked about if it was plugged in or not. But according to above account, apparently it does it for neither case when charging 12V, which is interesting (I presumed it would operate as when car is awake in general).

 

[stopcrazypp]

Your’e right.

It does not heat the HV battery to charge the LV battery.
Lithium batteries dislike being charged at low temperatures(sub freezing) but delivering/discharging at decent rates is not a problem.

Yes certainly aware of that, which is why I mentioned might be different plugged in. By operating temperature, I meant discharge operating temp (which is typically -20C for NCA chemistries). For charge it is 0C, so obviously is much higher.

I have:
-Scan My tesla with a tanlet permanently mounted in fron of the sterring wheel, showing SMT Data.
-Scan my tesla sending data to teslalogger whenever the car is awake and a small computer at home collecting all logs.
-Teslafi account.

I recently had my car standing outside at work for almost one week connected (about -22C to -10C during this week). The HV battery was not heated once between the charging finished and I preheated/topped of the charging for the drive home.

I also had my car standing outside not connected for 6 days (-20C to +2C but mainly -10C or coldet) after the charge at arrival. The HV battery was not heated once between the charging finished and I preheated/topped of the charging for the drive home.

In both cases the battery temp ended up close to the ouside ambient temp.

I’m quite sure I have the sufficient data logs to prove this.

There is a lot of myths about battery heating.

Interesting it does for neither connected nor connected. Presumably in your case connected, it never attempted to top off the car to make up for parasitic losses (so ever needed to charge the battery)?

For not connected, I presumed it would have operated the same as when car is normally awake and warm up battery if below operating temp. Maybe the battery core temp didn't reach quite below -20C (or whatever the operating temp target is in the car). Is it operating in a third state where all battery temp management is disabled or is it the case even when awake generally (for example you get in the car with climate off and car still it park) that it doesn't do battery heating either?

 

[AAKEE]

Yes certainly aware of that, which is why I mentioned might be different plugged in. By operating temperature, I meant discharge operating temp (which is typically -20C for NCA chemistries). For charge it is 0C, so obviously is much higher.

If the battery is about below freezing (somewhere around 0C) it will heat the battery but not until a drive is started or heating set to “on” or a planned departure is set.

Interesting it does for neither connected nor connected. Presumably in your case connected, it never attempted to top off the car to make up for parasitic losses (so ever needed to charge the battery)?

The first night after the charging arrival, it charged on my schedule. Deselecting the scheduled charged with the charging stopped it didnt charge.
After the charge, SOC was 54.8% when I checked. Several days later the SOC still was close to that, but the displayed SOC was some 52 or 51%. ( the SOC drop does not happen “inside BMS” abd is only a displayed lower value when the battery is very cold.

For not connected, I presumed it would have operated the same as when car is normally awake and warm up battery if below operating temp. Maybe the battery core temp didn't reach quite below -20C (or whatever the operating temp target is in the car). Is it operating in a third state where all battery temp management is disabled or is it the case even when awake generally (for example you get in the car with climate off and car still it park) that it doesn't do battery heating either?

We are not talking about the car being wake other then short bursts once/twice a day (topping of the LV battery?) so when I write did not heat the battery the car was in park and locked.

No, the battery was never down at -20C.
Lowest bat temp was somewhere around -13 to -15C.

Battery heating is quite common for me, parking outside for X hours with the battery soaked down to close to 0C or colder and either starting the heating with the app or just driving away or setting a planned departure will trigger the battery heat.

With my tablet it is easy to see, just activating the cabin heating might cause the battery power to reach 12kW, 6kw fir the heat pump and 3kW per motor.

 

[JelleV]

Didn't follow-up on the complete thread, but I often have pretty significant loss shortly after a drive due to the climate control running to clean out the filters. This was confirmed by Tesla Service. I have seen losses up to 7-8%. On the energy display, it just shows up as Standby. Car is an M3 SR+ from 2019.

Vampire drain is very small afterwards, even when leaving the car idle for many days. So it is clearly linked to driving.

I will have my filters replaced by service this week, might be overdue after 3 years (but only 40.000 kilometers). I do hope it improves the situation, as this standby climate control use is responsible for about 25 - 30% of my total energy consumption.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Didn't follow-up on the complete thread, but I often have pretty significant loss shortly after a drive due to the climate control running to clean out the filters. This was confirmed by Tesla Service. I have seen losses up to 7-8%. On the energy display, it just shows up as Standby. Car is an M3 SR+ from 2019.

Vampire drain is very small afterwards, even when leaving the car idle for many days. So it is clearly linked to driving.

I will have my filters replaced by service this week, might be overdue after 3 years (but only 40.000 kilometers). I do hope it improves the situation, as this standby climate control use is responsible for about 25 - 30% of my total energy consumption.

Yeah I can’t say that is a complete non factor in my case. The normal amount seems to be about 10-14 rated miles on that first sleep. But 12V monitor indicates no more than one hour of wake time after park and pretty hard to burn 3kWh in an hour with normal climate use.

Just seems like a bit of a bug or just standard BMS adjustment on that first cycle. This is second observed overnight loss of 14 miles. But 12V monitor indicates near perfect performance. This again happened to be after supercharge so will take another look after regular charge.

The tabulation seems correct (not overstating rated mile loss) since the drive monitor shows the step down.

But the car is definitely sleeping just fine so likely just numerical. Hopefully balanced out by gains when parking in future!

 

[JelleV]

I do have the impression it can burn through quite some battery using climate control in that timeframe.

In the ticket I reported to service I lost 6%, which in my case is close to 3 kWh, in a timespan of 55 minutes (confirmed by service team). They stated this as 'normal' and linked it to the fact that there was a lot of rain, so high humidity and more need to dry out the filters.

The annoying part is that there seems to be some recalibration going on regularly, as battery level often goes up again (although much less than down). The funny thing is that the energy app can't manage this 'negative consumption' in park, so the numbers don't add up. I wonder if they plan to fix that.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I do have the impression it can burn through quite some battery using climate control in that timeframe.

Just not possible in my scenario given cabin already at temp and sitting in garage at temp. I’ll pay closer attention in future though.

Quite confident only a small contributor. Time period to sleep was less than 45 minutes.

The funny thing is that the energy app can't manage this 'negative consumption' in park, so the numbers don't add up. I wonder if they plan to fix that.

Yes, they should definitely fix this. Though they probably won't. They should at least track it in the background and just not display less than 0 if they prefer (though I think that would lead to confusion).

This has been a thing for years, and the third-party apps also don't manage it properly, AFAIK. (Last I checked.)