we've had this discussion before and this is simply not true... the code requires GFCI for outdoor installation for even a hard wired connector due to the death of a child a few years ago
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Installing Wall Connector is better than NEMA 14-50
- Thread starter Magnet77
- Start date
davewill
Active Member
As discussed on here.. manufacturer's instructions do NOT supersede code compliance.
davewill
Active Member
i mean you could buy some crazy charging device from a 3rd world country and burn your house down but you won't be able to point to "manufacturers instructions" when dealing with insurance and/or being sued for violating code
@davewill I am going to have to begrudgingly admit that @gt2690b is correct here, although I really don't like it.
Yes, the wall connector installation instructions say to not use a GFCI breaker. But some of the newer stuff in NEC 2020 goes waaayyy overboard with requiring GFCI all over the freaking place, and the wording of it does seem to include hard wired EV charging equipment if it is outdoors.
You could technically make the case that there is an unavoidable conflict of wording here with no correct answer. Code has the catch-all that says you must follow the manufacturer's installation instructions--so no GFCI. But Code also says it must have GFCI. So which do you do? Well, you try to convince an inspector of whichever you would prefer to do, since neither answer is clearly correct.
Yes, the wall connector installation instructions say to not use a GFCI breaker. But some of the newer stuff in NEC 2020 goes waaayyy overboard with requiring GFCI all over the freaking place, and the wording of it does seem to include hard wired EV charging equipment if it is outdoors.
You could technically make the case that there is an unavoidable conflict of wording here with no correct answer. Code has the catch-all that says you must follow the manufacturer's installation instructions--so no GFCI. But Code also says it must have GFCI. So which do you do? Well, you try to convince an inspector of whichever you would prefer to do, since neither answer is clearly correct.
davewill
Active Member
I'll believe when I hear about inspectors requiring it. Until then it's just some guy on the internet.
I agree the code is overboard but a loose or wet wire with compromised insulation in an RGS conduit going to the HPWC could potentially kill someone... hopefully the next version of the code provides clarification
Uhhh because it is fine.
I've been charging my 2015 Model S daily this way for numerous years without a single issue. 2000 overnight charge sessions and 100,000 miles and later and not a single issue.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Look up thread, it's not in 625, it's in 210.8(F) and covers all outdoor "outlets" 50A or less (not charging specifically):
Installing Wall Connector is better than NEMA 14-50
not really a gotcha... per the definition i've listed 3 or 4 times now this would not require GFCI since the circuit is > 50A ... many EVSE installs use 50A or less .. also many TWC are installed inside so the amp rating does not matter Agreed, we are only discussing outdoor installations of...
teslamotorsclub.com
That references outlets, not hard wired.Look up thread, it's not in 625, it's in 210.8(F) and covers all outdoor "outlets" 50A or less (not charging specifically):
Installing Wall Connector is better than NEMA 14-50
not really a gotcha... per the definition i've listed 3 or 4 times now this would not require GFCI since the circuit is > 50A ... many EVSE installs use 50A or less .. also many TWC are installed inside so the amp rating does not matter Agreed, we are only discussing outdoor installations of...
I haven’t found anything on hard wired either. 625 only references outlets or receptacles.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
See the discussion, an EVSE is still considered an "outlet" under NECs definition. An example given are air conditioning units, they are all hardwired, but are still considered "outlets". In fact that provision was specifically to address accidents that happened with those.
Article referenced in that comment specifically addresses the difference between "outlet" and "receptacle":
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With that being said, the GFCI protection under 625.54 states “receptacle”. I could not find any mention of an outlet. It states receptacles because a person (625.54 (D)) can easily come into contact with a live conductor when plugging in or removing the plug while standing barefoot in a damp or wet location. A hard wired wall connector does not expose people to live circuits on a daily basis without requiring some kind of tool to do so.
I have yet to see a wall connector denied on inspection because it didn’t have a GFCI. Ironically, I set my welder next to my 14-50 receptacle and it passed without a second guess. Welders must me considered safer than EV owners.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The 210.8(F) covers outdoor equipment, which includes the wall connector if it is installed outside. The problem is even with a hardwire, a wire can sometimes be connected to the case by accident and that have shocked people. The code doesn't make an exception for EVSEs (or non-conductive cases).
Welders are not required to have GFCI, the 625 covers EVSEs.I have yet to see a wall connector denied on inspection because it didn’t have a GFCI. Ironically, I set my welder next to my 14-50 receptacle and it passed without a second guess. Welders must me considered safer than EV owners.
davewill
Active Member
You're probably going to have to find a Japanese forum, or try the Japan subforum here to get a valid answer.
I didn't refer to 210.8(F) - Outdoor equipment, and yes, all outdoor outlets are required to be GFCI protected. The original question was referring to 625, which is indoor locations while 210.8 is referred to for outdoor locations.
I know what 625 refers to. In layman's terms, the potential risk for a welder and a portable connector are the same but they have two different standards was what I was implying.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The original question I responded to did not refer to indoor or outdoor locations, it was just a general question on where the NEC requires a GFCI breaker for a hardwired EVSE, and that's the section that does if you install one outside.
Installing Wall Connector is better than NEMA 14-50
Indoor or outdoors, you don't use a GFCI breaker for a wall connector. The wall connector supplies the GFCI function. we've had this discussion before and this is simply not true... the code requires GFCI for outdoor installation for even a hard wired connector due to the death of a child a few...
teslamotorsclub.com
The welder exception is an existing carry over to make a reasonable exception for a niche application for a presumably more skilled person. The risks are not the same with an EVSE because they are going to be used by everyone, more likely to be used everyday, plugged/unplugged frequently (especially a 110V outlet), with person typically coming from outside (returning home) with increased risk of being wet.
Same exception with sockets used for appliances like stoves or dryers. Those will be typically plugged into a location blocked by the appliance and probably remain plugged in for the rest of their useful life, so the risks are very different from using one for a EVSE, even though the plug may be the same.
I'm realizing there's discussion in this thread about indoor vs outdoor installations. I just want to point out that when I say using a Mobile Connector for daily use is fine, I'm talking about for an indoor application. Not sure sure it would hold up for outdoor use.
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