I'm impressed with nrg eVgo

[miimura]

You really still don't get this. It is impossible to use 25-80 kW L2 DC EVSE's to realistically support a significant BEV infrastructure. The costs are way too high. The benefits are way too low. We need far cheaper charging points spread all over - the destination charging network and in North America, that means J1772 AC Level 2, ideally at 10-19 kW. For high speed charging, that's Level 3 DC, or 200-400 amps for 100 - 150 kW. The high cost of L3 is only worth it to support long distance travel and therefore most people don't use it for everyday commuting. Anything else and you are talking about 5x to 10x the cost with reduced number of plugs which means congestion and the inability to rely on the charging network.

The first generation of BEV's... the i-Mievs, the Leafs, the Ford Focus Electric and so forth cannot be used as a template for the infrastructure to support 1,000,000's of BEVs on the road. It is foolhardy to try to build the infrastructure to make these vehicles into all around vehicles. The costs then rival hydrogen infrastructure costs.

First, 10-20kW AC Level 2 will not be provided by any automaker other than Tesla - and even Tesla seems to be deprecating the second charger now. Second, since every EV in America that doesn't have a Tesla on-board charger has one that is less than 8kW, there has to be some kind of DC charging >25kW. Obviously, the higher the DC power delivery the better. I would argue that the network that NRG is building now in urban and suburban areas is a bridge that allows people to consider the available "city cars" as a viable alternative. I also think that if they can do away with the No Charge to Charge programs that encourage excessive use, then the network would support an order of magnitude more cars than it does today. There was a study in Japan that concluded that the mere presence of fast chargers in the area made people comfortable enough to use a much larger percentage of their battery on a routine basis - even when they never used the fast chargers. It will take a REALLY long time for there to be useful AC-L2 at every place you actually go as a "destination". For the existing affordable cars on the market, the current build-out of DC chargers is important.

Just to show that I understand your point, I don't think that ANY charging infrastructure could make a Leaf, a Soul EV, or an e-Golf into a viable vehicle for a 400 mile road trip. For that kind of trip you clearly need a much larger battery (50kWh+ usable) and truly high power chargers located on all significant travel corridors. It will take a long time for the other automakers and charging networks to catch up to even where Tesla is today. However, that is not a good reason for them to sit on their hands either. The current standards are all they have to work with and for a significant number of people on the west coast, it is workable.

 

[Rocky_H]

Nope. There are no Level 3 CHAdeMO or CCS EVSE's, at least not by the original terms that SAE used:

http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf

Well, I sort of learned something new and sort of didn’t. I’ve been following electric vehicle things pretty closely for a few years and have been very familiar with the terminology of Level 1, 2, and 3. This thing from SAE is completely alien to me and the rest of the EV landscape, apparently. SAE has definitions for AC Level 1, 2, and 3 and then DC Level 1, 2, and 3? No one uses those definitions, but SAE. Everywhere I have seen, and as commonly used by EV sites, there are not two separate columns for AC and DC; those are contained within the 1, 2, and 3 terms. Level 1 is used to refer to 120V AC outlets. Level 2 is the 208-240V AC, and Level 3 are the DC ones. So it is odd that SAE has these official type of definitions that don’t at all match what is very known and used everywhere.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Well, I sort of learned something new and sort of didn’t. I’ve been following electric vehicle things pretty closely for a few years and have been very familiar with the terminology of Level 1, 2, and 3. This thing from SAE is completely alien to me and the rest of the EV landscape, apparently. SAE has definitions for AC Level 1, 2, and 3 and then DC Level 1, 2, and 3? No one uses those definitions, but SAE. Everywhere I have seen, and as commonly used by EV sites, there are not two separate columns for AC and DC; those are contained within the 1, 2, and 3 terms. Level 1 is used to refer to 120V AC outlets. Level 2 is the 208-240V AC, and Level 3 are the DC ones. So it is odd that SAE has these official type of definitions that don’t at all match what is very known and used everywhere.

The "level" terminology originated from SAE with the J1772 spec. People obviously follow it for the AC side (120V = level 1, 240V (up to 80A) = level 2, level 3 20kW+ AC doesn't exist in the US, but it does in Europe with 3 phase charging). However, the level 3 term in colloquial use was assigned to all DC charging, with people not following SAE convention there. I suppose the reason is it simplifies things since you don't have to make it clear if you are referring to DC or AC when saying level 1 or level 2.

 

[smilepak]

Have u notice they charge your credit card? I've used it three of four times now, can't seem to find the charge on my account

 

[kmontoya]

Have u notice they charge your credit card? I've used it three of four times now, can't seem to find the charge on my account

They run a little bit behind schedule, I charged by the Corona Chase bank on 6/15 and I didn't see any thing until least the end of July. I seem to remember reading something about you being charged around the same time of the month as you signed up.

 

[smilepak]

Oh. That's explain why. Slow archaic system

 

[Oba]

The level 1,2,3 thing was changed by SAE about 2011-2012 to the new "bizarro" and more difficult to understand version.

Thankfully, nobody has to follow the SAE nomenclature, and the industry in general hasn't adopted their musings. For example, there are exactly ZERO of the "Level 2" 80 amp DC plugs that SAE envisioned, nor are any planned.

I fully recommend using the terms that lay people, particularly those that are new to EVs, can understand:

Level 1 - the pathetic 120 volt AC cord that your non-Tesla EV came with (1.4kW max)
Level 2 - the charging station that you should have at your charging location, 240 volts AC (19.2kW max)
Level 3 - the charging station that is NOT at your house, and charges quickly, DC output at 100kW max, typical 40kW

 

[Oba]

Not at all. Level 2 DC never makes sense... Read the whole comment and examine what it means to support 1 million BEV's on the road. It's the mistake of looking at things as they are... (Thanks for screwing us, Nissan!) rather than what they will be or need to be.

Thankfully, very few people support your views, and we are on a good trajectory for widespread EVs.

Nissan didn't "screw" anybody with the most popular EV in the world. It can fully charge overnight at both 3.3kW and 6.6kW, and consumers are given a choice. I charge my Tesla just fine every night with 9.6kW, and really see no need to expand that capability, PROVIDED THAT THE FASTEST PUBLIC DC CHARGING IS AVAILABLE AND UBIQUITOUS.

Please note that future 150kWh battery cars may really need 19.2kW charging for overnight charging, but honestly, it's a teeny, tiny edge case for that need today.

For the future, I predict:

1) Somewhat expensive wireless charging, but not likely over 20kW, therefore limited to expensive cars for overnight use

2) Elimination of onboard chargers altogether, whereby your destination / home / overnight / workplace charging station would actually be 3-20kW DC chargers. It's just dumb to carry around the weight and expense of chargers on millions of cars.

3) Widespread, ubiquitous public DC charging, where 50kW is considered extremely slow, 100kW is the norm, and 150-250kW are available. For Tesla, I can foresee a 140kWh battery car (double my S-70D) with two ports, one on each side, each of which can provide 370 amps, or about 240kW... with existing Tesla infrastructure and technology (the battery is still charging at the same "C" rate).


We can't go back in time and change Nissan cars, nor does bellyaching about their lack of faster AC charging resolve any issue. The future will absolutely NOT be higher power public AC charging in place of DC charging at 5 or 10 multiples the speed.

The absolute fastest public charging is what consumers expect, want, and deserve. AC power is not that. Faster than 19.2kW overnight charging, whether AC or DC, is not likely to be needed "ever" (as it can potentially service a 140kWh car with nearly 500 miles range within 8 hours).

 

[David99]

There a just too many old ways of thinking in our heads that we just apply to EVs and think that's the way it has to be. We always fill up a gas car. No one ever goes to a gas station and only fills up half (unless they have no money). It makes sense because it's an inconvenience. And we end up doing it maybe once a week. EVs are plugged in every night so all we need is recharge what we need for 24 hours. The average person drives 40 miles a day. That's 14 kWh. A lousy 3.3 kW charger can easily handle that. You are driving 200 miles a day? A 10 kW charger does that in 7 hours. There is no advantage in a 20 kW charger at home.

When we are on the road, we need to charge really quick. I mean really quick. 20 kW isn't quick, it's slow. Adding more or bigger AC chargers in the car makes no sense. It adds weight, takes up space and the car has to get rid of the heat. Charging away from home should be all DC and as quick as possible. We get the advantage of fast charging without *any* compromise on the car. AC charging outside of home only makes sense at hotels, at work and maybe at theme parks where you spend a significant amount of time. But even there I don't see much need in the future. EVs will have enough range to not need to charge every time they stop. For the most part I don't care where chargers are. My Tesla has enough range. If I get into a situation where I need it I sure will look for DC chargers first and even take a detour to get one of those. L2 just doesn't make any sense.

Even with huge batteries in the future, we don't need to have faster chargers at home. Battery size doesn't change our daily driving needs. If I have a 800 mile battery I still only drive 100 a day for work. I don't care if the battery is only half full after one night. Just as much as no one runs to the gas stations in their ICE when the tank is half empty.

 

[smilepak]

350 miles is the perfect sweet spot for me

 

[techmaven]

Yeah, neither of you, Oba and David99 has done the cost calculations, either in aggregate for the charging infrastructure as a whole on a national or regional basis nor the costs to run a single multi-plug DC charging site.

Within a foreseeable future, say 15-20 years, wireless charging or DC only charging is absolutely ridiculous. Transferring gigawatt hours to terawatt hours and taking a 10% inductive charging hit is tremendously wasteful, not to mention the car alignment problems. DC only is also completely fanciful. Who would buy such a limited car? Which DC charging standard would this be locked to? The costs alone for DC only is mind boggling. $6,500 plus install costs for a tested, underwritten DC EVSE, likely $8,000-10k. Those costs will drop, say, even in half or 4x and you still can't compare to 10kW J1772 AC. All BEVs for the foreseeable future will have to have onboard AC chargers. The only question then is how expensive, how fast.

Part of the whole point is that J1772, up to 80 amps has legs. It will likely be completely relevant for the next 20 years. We likely won't feel the need to upgrade. Therefore, infrastructure installed with J1772 at 40-80 amps will have a very long amortization period. The equipment is cheap and the install costs the lowest. Further, we need many plugs. Many, many plugs.

David99, take the scenario all the way... Most people will not need to plug in during the day. Your Tesla has all the range you need almost every day. So no need to charge at the grocery store. No need to charge at your dentist's office. Or the local pub. You only need charging if you travel somewhere far away. So, think about where that would be and where you would want to charge. Ideally, hotels, workplaces, convention center parking, theme parks, wineries, and so forth. And each and every one of these will need many plugs. If you charging to get to one of these places, the it needs to be the fastest DC charging... 100 kW is still a bit slow... probably 150 kW+. But at the minimum, 100 kW. You can minimize your in-trip charging if you know you have destination charging available. Once you are there, then do you want to move your car in 30-45 min to share 1-2 plugs? Or come back out since both plugs are used? Is it likely you travelled all that way and you will notice the difference between charging for 2-4 hours versus 45 minutes? When you do get to that hotel with a nearly empty 120 kWh pack, you want to charge that up in 8 hours. You don't care to charge it in 45 minutes or 1 hour... You want a plug available and for the car to be mostly full overnight. That's J1772 AC charging. Remember, 5-10 J1772's versus one CHAdeMO/CCS.

So a BEV future has to be AC destination charging at 10-19 kW and very fast DC charging. Airports are a special case and can get away with L1 AC, but with *many* plugs. DC charging would be very expensive to install, maintain, and basically be nearly impossible to make money for the site owner. Plus DC will need to be 100kW or more to make sense to support long distance travel. Therefore, every CHAdeMO and CCS that has been installed or is going in without the standards being revised to real L3 is a complete waste of money. We know they will have to revise the standards or basically concede almost the entire BEV market to Tesla. Almost every site owner putting in DC today will have a very short time period to amortize their investment. It is basically throwing money away. They could help us build what would be what is needed for the next 15-20 years... 40-80 amp J1772. Or finalize a real L3 standard to install. Or both. But L2 DC is all about ego and short term lock in. Too many people think like Leaf owners and not Tesla owners. The average BEV of 2020 in the U.S. will be far more like a current Model S than a current Leaf.

 

[smilepak]

Charged EVs | NRG EVgo on the move: Its DC fast charging network passed major milestones (Full Interview)

 

[Dave EV]

Do you have the $30 per month + 0.10$/minute plan? It seems like a great deal for frequent use.

The subscription plan is $14.95 / mo + $0.10 / minute for QC. If you use them 2 times a month or more, the subscription is worth it.

Seriously... take the $50,000 per DC EVSE plug and multiply it out by the number of EVSE's necessary to support local travel of Nissan Leaf's. It rivals hydrogen fueling infrastructure.

Now that's a bit generous. I don't think that anyone would argue that for hotels, L2 stations make the most sense by far. But for shopping malls and other commercial retail space, you really need/want a combination of QC and L2. For regular charging at home or work - you want cheap L2 or even L1.

The only reason why there is this build out of local DC EVSE's is because of these low range EV's like the Nissan Leaf and the BMW i3.

If you want to build up the industry enough to where we can get to the next generation of batteries, we really have to take this intermediate step of shorter range EVs. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. And even the next generation of EVs isn't likely to charge significantly faster on a 100 kW vs 50 kW QC, so it's not like all these 50 kW QCs are going to waste.

The solution isn't more DC EVSE's, it's 5x to 10x more plugs of AC EVSEs at 40A+ (10 kW+)

It's really a combination of both QC and L2 - best distributed based on the location of the stations. As far as > 30A L2 - so far Teslas (and EVs with Tesla drivetrains) are the only vehicles that can take advantage of 40A+ L2 stations.

It is a shame because even for your 80 mile EVs, 80A L2 is not all that much slower than a 50 kW QC over 30 minutes, yet the infrastructure is a LOT cheaper and a LOT more reliable.

Tesla spends about $300,000 to install 3-4x Superchargers at 135 kW each. The site has 400-500kW with 6-8 plugs.
NRG spends about $75,000 to 100,000 to install 2 DC Level 2 combo EVSE's at 62 kW each. The site has 130 kW with 2 plugs..

The real problem is that Tesla is the only manufacturer who has figured out how to cost effectively build and install DC QC infrastructure. I would love to see actual costs for a Tesla SuperCharger install compared to an eVgo install, though. I feel like you could get a single Tesla SuperCharger cabinet and hook up 3-4 CHAdeMO plugs at a single location with some engineering work.

 

[techmaven]

Now that's a bit generous. I don't think that anyone would argue that for hotels, L2 stations make the most sense by far. But for shopping malls and other commercial retail space, you really need/want a combination of QC and L2. For regular charging at home or work - you want cheap L2 or even L1.

There are about 250 million vehicles in the U.S. 1% of that is 2.5 million vehicles. There have been about 355,000 plug-in vehicles of all types sold in North America in the past 5 years. To hit 1% of the fleet, we're talking about 10x the number of plug-ins on the road. To hit 10% of the fleet, we're talking about 100x. More than 100x to hit 10% for BEVs.

At 100x, the amount of energy one can reasonably, cost effectively load into BEVs with DC charging infrastructure is very, very small. The congestion would be tremendous. At 5x to 10x the number of plugs and emphasizing home charging or workplace charging is the only way to bring 10% of the fleet to BEVs.

In the U.S. there are 1,238 CHAdeMO charging stations according to CHadeMO. Assume 1,250 at $25,000 for each plug on average - that's $31 million dollars in CHAdeMO charging infrastructure. There are about 90,000 BEVs sold in North America that can take CHAdeMO ever. Assume for the moment that CHAdeMO locations are chosen well (not usually the case, but...) and so we would need the same amount of CHAdeMOs per vehicle as we have so far. That's 28x the current CHAdeMO fleet to hit 2.5 million vehicles. 28 x $31 million = $870 million dollars. That's just to support 1% of the national fleet as well as the current CHAdeMO fleet is supported by the CHAdeMO charging infrastructure. Unfortunately, the current CHAdeMO charging infrastructure is very poor. A simple doubling will likely still not be all that much of an improvement, but we're talking about $1.7 billion dollars at that point. To hit 10% of the fleet at double the current support level, we're talking $17 billion dollars.

L2 DC charging is a dead end. It costs to much to transfer energy to the fleet. It isn't fast enough to support long distance travel, it's too expensive to use regularly. For AC charging, divide the $17 billion by 5 or 10.

Further, the AC charging infrastructure will last a very long time. Any bets on how long the current CHAdeMO or CCS standard will last?

If you want to build up the industry enough to where we can get to the next generation of batteries, we really have to take this intermediate step of shorter range EVs. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. And even the next generation of EVs isn't likely to charge significantly faster on a 100 kW vs 50 kW QC, so it's not like all these 50 kW QCs are going to waste.

True that the next generation of BEVs coming from the various non-Tesla automakers in 2016/2017 will not likely outrun 200A L2 DC charging. Most will likely have around 40-50 kWh of battery capacity and utilize the 65-75 kW L2 DC EVSE's that are nominally 100 kW. However, so few 100 kW CHAdeMO/CCS EVSEs are deployed. The cost for upgrade is substantial. In the meantime, public money is being spent to deploy 50/62 kW Combo DC. Complete waste of money.

The dynamic, however, will change even with 40-50 kWh battery packs. Most people won't need to charge during most days. Charge either at night or at work, but no need to charge otherwise. With 120-150 miles of real range, these 2016-2018 vehicles will satisfy the daily grind for the vast majority of people. That means fewer people willing to pay $$$$ to charge at these expensive L2 DC EVSE's. However, most of the current ones aren't deployed to facilitate long distance travel. They're set up to support urban commuting patterns. But even with the reduction in local use, there still aren't enough to support destination charging for travelers with even 2x the current fleet numbers. One or two plugs at a destination isn't going to cut it. The destination charging network is going to have to be AC to have 4 or 20 or 50 plugs at a location. And since its a destination, charging in 45 minutes versus, say, 4 hours is likely not a big deal.

It's really a combination of both QC and L2 - best distributed based on the location of the stations. As far as > 30A L2 - so far Teslas (and EVs with Tesla drivetrains) are the only vehicles that can take advantage of 40A+ L2 stations.

Manufacturers will be forced to include a sufficient on-board AC charger to charge the vehicle in 7-8 hours. So as these vehicles ship with bigger packs, they will get upgrades to the on-board AC charger. Whatever long range BEVs due to ship in 2018/2019 will have 10 kW AC charging - they must, or fail in the market against Tesla's offerings. Imagine if Porsche or Audi ships a BEV SUV in 2018 to counter the Model X and fails to include an AC charger sufficient to charge the vehicle in 8 hours. Or can't DC fast charge at 120 kW or better. Yeah, the big pressure will be on to revise the CCS standard and to include 10 kW AC charging. So what about that CCS 50 kW station installed in 2016? Oh, yeah, oops. Good thing the government chipped in substantial money to make that happen, right?

 

[stopcrazypp]

L2 DC charging is a dead end. It costs to much to transfer energy to the fleet. It isn't fast enough to support long distance travel, it's too expensive to use regularly. For AC charging, divide the $17 billion by 5 or 10.

What about wall mounted L1 DC like the 24kW chargers BMW is installing? The installation costs should be closer to a 80A L2 AC EVSE and you offload the onboard charger costs onto the site. I believe a huge part of the cost of L2 DC is because they are floor mounted and the electrical requirements are high.

When the number of cars greatly outnumber the number of chargers, DC charging starts to make sense in terms of cost (when you also consider the cost of the onboard charger).

 

[techmaven]

What about wall mounted L1 DC like the 24kW chargers BMW is installing? The installation costs should be closer to a 80A L2 AC EVSE and you offload the onboard charger costs onto the site. I believe a huge part of the cost of L2 DC is because they are floor mounted and the electrical requirements are high.

When the number of cars greatly outnumber the number of chargers, DC charging starts to make sense in terms of cost (when you also consider the cost of the onboard charger).

You can't get away from the onboard AC charger, otherwise you won't be able to use J1772 or any AC outlet including your UMC. The BMW units are $6,500 + installation. They take 400V-480V 3 phase at 30A.

Examine the 10 plug scenario. J1772's 40A each, $1,500 per pedestal, $15k for EVSE's. 240 volt, 500 amp service. Probably $2-5k to install, $20k total. For the DC EVSE's alone, we're talking $65,000. Let's say they are willing to knock down 25%. That's still $50k without any installation costs. Plus, you're talking about restricting to places with 400+v 3 phase service. There were some low power CHAdeMO EVSE's that could take 240v service, but they were very expensive and the market didn't go in that direction.

Fundamentally, your car will need to carry an AC->DC rectifier. To buy a DC EVSE is to then buy both the AC->DC rectifier on board and the one that is hard wired. It's worth it when you can charge at 100+ kW with DC. Not worth it if it is barely better than your on-board rectifier.

 

[renim]

You can't get away from the onboard AC charger, otherwise you won't be able to use J1772 or any AC outlet including your UMC. The BMW units are $6,500 + installation. They take 400V-480V 3 phase at 30A.

Agree, AC upto 20/22kW makes the 20kW-35kW mostly pointless, (the point of a 25kW DC charger is more for validation of servicing than for use) 40kW to 60kW still makes sense for urban DC charging if the batteries have high taper at higher charges. but the main use of these DC chargers is as insurance - peace of mind.

Will the rollout of DC chargers be wasted, no, people still use cola vending machines despite cola being available at the supermakets etc.

 

[stopcrazypp]

You can't get away from the onboard AC charger, otherwise you won't be able to use J1772 or any AC outlet including your UMC. The BMW units are $6,500 + installation. They take 400V-480V 3 phase at 30A.

Examine the 10 plug scenario. J1772's 40A each, $1,500 per pedestal, $15k for EVSE's. 240 volt, 500 amp service. Probably $2-5k to install, $20k total. For the DC EVSE's alone, we're talking $65,000. Let's say they are willing to knock down 25%. That's still $50k without any installation costs. Plus, you're talking about restricting to places with 400+v 3 phase service. There were some low power CHAdeMO EVSE's that could take 240v service, but they were very expensive and the market didn't go in that direction.

Fundamentally, your car will need to carry an AC->DC rectifier. To buy a DC EVSE is to then buy both the AC->DC rectifier on board and the one that is hard wired. It's worth it when you can charge at 100+ kW with DC. Not worth it if it is barely better than your on-board rectifier.

I didn't realize the BMW unit didn't support 240V. I suppose the siemens unit is a better example:
http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-24-kw-fast-charger/

I should clarify. I don't mean using DC to completely replace all onboard chargers, but rather as an alternative to 20kW 80A AC EVSEs. Most EVs come with 3.3kW or 6.6kW onboard chargers, so the 20kW AC EVSEs are worthless to them. And even for Tesla, the 20kW charger is a $1500 option (on top of the 10kW).

If example 24kW L1 DC costs $6500 and installation costs are similar to 20kW AC, all it takes is 4-5 cars per charger for onboard charger option costs to exceed the offboard costs.

That is the main problem with 20kW EVSEs.

 

[smilepak]

I didn't realize the BMW unit didn't support 240V. I suppose the siemens unit is a better example:
http://insideevs.com/siemens-unveils-single-phase-24-kw-fast-charger/

I should clarify. I don't mean using DC to completely replace all onboard chargers, but rather as an alternative to 20kW 80A AC EVSEs. Most EVs come with 3.3kW or 6.6kW onboard chargers, so the 20kW AC EVSEs are worthless to them. And even for Tesla, the 20kW charger is a $1500 option (on top of the 10kW).

If example 24kW L1 DC costs $6500 and installation costs are similar to 20kW AC, all it takes is 4-5 cars per charger for onboard charger option costs to exceed the offboard costs.

That is the main problem with 20kW EVSEs.

Hmmm
That will be pricey for home use.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Hmmm
That will be pricey for home use.

I'm not talking about home use, primarily for public charging infrastructure, where there would be way more than one car using it, where offboard charger costs are offset by reduced onboard charger costs spread across multiple cars.

If the ratio is one to one like for home use it does not make much sense (vs something like $1500 20kW option + $750 wall connector).