"I’d choose a cheap old banger over an electric car any day of the week"

[AnxietyRanger]

yep

ppl who are priviledged enough to be near SpC or home charging dont get how terrible the EV infrastructure is for so many of us.

that's the power of priviledge, perhaps, but it pays to see things from other ppl's perspective

Hear, hear! That is a point I have been trying to make in other threads as well.

People with HPWCs in garages and SpCs down the road(s) don't get it what it is like to park outside on a public road, without an SpC in sight. In that case it comes down to a much more variable situation regarding local EV infrastructure, because you don't start at full every morning. In fairly developed EV areas, people may also forget what it is like then you add sparse/bad charging infrastructure to this. In Europe, made twice the bad because CCS and CHAdeMO are increasingly common and neither are currently supported by Tesla.

I have driven to the only charger in a region only to find out it doesn't support my car and then literally taken the freeway to the next city, with a few miles to spare, to the only AC charger there that luckily wasn't occupied, but a hassle to get charging. My Model S can't reach the nearest super charger without a tow truck.

I have slow but sure 230V 13A home charging, which usually allows me to start at 90% (not always) and could install a faster one, but I also have acquaintances who charge in (the sparse) public chargers only when possibly. That is an adventure that everyone would be wise to factor in when talking EV driving with strangers. Not everyone has detached houses and garages and driveways.

- - - Updated - - -

The above was not a comment on the article, of course. The article would have, at the very least, merited a comment on how longer-range EVs like Model S (well, only Model S) change the equation and/or how he was pushing the range of his particular EV in this case, which is not always the scenario for EV use.

 

[tonybelding]

Although the points about charging infrastructure are well-taken, this is what got me:

"The problems began when, minutes into my gentle, 70-mile city-to-town run, the dash in the EV hinted that it might not, after all, have 70 miles in it."

And I'm sitting here trying to imagine living with a car that only has 70 miles range, or less. Maybe it's just because of where I live, because I know everyone's circumstances are different, but long ago I calculated that if an EV was my only car, it would need to either be a PHEV like the Volt or else it would need around 200 miles range to be fully practical. I think that's still the big barrier for a lot of people, and it's not just a purely psychological barrier, but it's also a practical one in many instances.

If charging stations -- dependable ones -- continue to proliferate, that could help somewhat. Most of them now are still Level 2, which can extend things somewhat, but then there's the question of how long you're willing to loiter around the station. It's not a panacea.

 

[Krugerrand]

Although the points about charging infrastructure are well-taken, this is what got me:

"The problems began when, minutes into my gentle, 70-mile city-to-town run, the dash in the EV hinted that it might not, after all, have 70 miles in it."

And I'm sitting here trying to imagine living with a car that only has 70 miles range, or less. Maybe it's just because of where I live, because I know everyone's circumstances are different, but long ago I calculated that if an EV was my only car, it would need to either be a PHEV like the Volt or else it would need around 200 miles range to be fully practical. I think that's still the big barrier for a lot of people, and it's not just a purely psychological barrier, but it's also a practical one in many instances.

But why are you even trying to go 70 miles when the limit of your car is 70 miles?!? That's got nothing to do with charging infrastructure. That has to do with not being able to think as far as the end of your nose.

Okay, so someone wants to argue that with a gas car he could stop partway there and top off. Yep, probably, maybe. Except, it doesn't seem he had any intention of recharging the car along the way, UNTIL he'd started on his way and then suddenly realized, oops. Really? When wanting to travel 70 miles in your gas car, do you think it's a good idea to start with exactly 70 miles worth of gas, knowing full well that your gas mileage is dependent on several factors, which you may or may not be able to control on your trip? Nobody I know thinks like that. They top off their tank before leaving on their trip or very shortly into their trip along the way...wherever they know there's likely to be an open gas station.

The author didn't plan his trip according to the car he was driving. Yep, right now EVs require you to do some preplanning when you're going to go beyond the battery's range. If that's not within your scope of abilities, maybe stick to the old banger and cross your fingers it doesn't breakdown along the way. And if it does breakdown, on the bright side you'll have plenty of gas in it.

 

[BrianC]

Dolts like this only hurt the entire EV market. Only now are companies building out a REAL charging infrastructure in the US. Until a real network is full of fast 30-40m charging between stops, stories like this will always crop up.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I agree the author set unrealistic expectations on his EV, created probably by an archaic industry not trying very hard. Perhaps it was an BMW i3 BEV. Also, his article didn't consider - at all - the merits of better EV implementations (larger batteries and Superchargers included). Those were his failings or deliberate attempts at click baiting. Model S would have done better, Tesla Roadster would have done better. Either way, it was unfair.

That said, the point about poor EV infrastructure is not an unreasonable one. From what I can gather, he did have two backup locations in case the original 70 mile estimate would not hold water and get him to where he was going. Perhaps the weather was colder than usual, or something. The fact that neither could serve him, is testament to the sorry state of EV infrastructure in many places. Low demand and interest creating poor maintenance and the nascent state of the infrastructure combined with long charging times resulting in hogged chargers when used, without enough stalls to server in parallel. Both very real problems in many areas, no matter the range of the EV. I have been in similar trouble with a Model S that was charged to 100% at home.

 

[tonybelding]

The author didn't plan his trip according to the car he was driving. Yep, right now EVs require you to do some preplanning when you're going to go beyond the battery's range.

That's all true, and yet your leeway is so much less with these short-range cars. The shorter the range, the less room you've got for any deviation or error, and it's not entirely fair to just wave that away and say he should know better. It's semi-fair. Yes he should know better, but it's also just that much easier to get in trouble with such a vehicle.

 

[ecarfan]

Of course it's easier to have a range problem in a short range EV. That's like saying it's easier to run out of gas if your ICE has a 10 gallon tank instead of a 20 gallon tank. Obviously.

The article author failed to understand the vehicle he was driving, I think deliberately, in order to create an article that would attract attention.

Yes EV charging infrastructure is poor for those who do not own Teslas (and yes some Tesla owners who are unable to install proper charging where they live and who live far from a Supercharger also struggle with charging). But the article author did not bother to explore the reasons why EV charging is poor for short range EVs and then provide some context, they simply wanted to bitch about it and write an article that distorted the EV experience.

 

[paulwesterberg]

I ran out of gas in my old Buick Century driving to my folks place in rural Wisconsin during a holiday weekend. I forgot to fuel up at the city and gas stations in small towns were all closed. This was before pay-at-the-pump, smartphones, gps, etc.

More recently I ran out of gas in my prius, I intended to get gas at my freeway exit, but that exit had been recently constructed and had no gas stations. After the gas engine konked out I was still able to continue on for 4 more miles on the battery and could have made it to the next town, but my passengers sent me in the wrong direction.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Of course it's easier to have a range problem in a short range EV. That's like saying it's easier to run out of gas if your ICE has a 10 gallon tank instead of a 20 gallon tank. Obviously.

The article author failed to understand the vehicle he was driving, I think deliberately, in order to create an article that would attract attention.

Yes EV charging infrastructure is poor for those who do not own Teslas (and yes some Tesla owners who are unable to install proper charging where they live and who live far from a Supercharger also struggle with charging). But the article author did not bother to explore the reasons why EV charging is poor for short range EVs and then provide some context, they simply wanted to bitch about it and write an article that distorted the EV experience.

You make fair acknowledgements at the end of your message, so I would agree with much what you say. Including that the reporter probably, intentionally, chose an overly negative tone of the experience instead of offsetting it with some reasonable context of what EVing at its best can be and already is, in many places (read: where Teslas and their HPWCs and Superchargers reign supreme). He also suggested a 70-mile EV is state of the art. LOL.

However, I'm not sure he didn't understand the car. Of course he was reaching for the far end of its range, but at the same time he did have enough forethought and range to reach not only one, but two chargers on the way. How many backups can one reasonably plan for, where infrastructure is sparse? I have been in a situation where there was only one charger available after my two initial options were depleted. Had it been offline or unavailable (single stall, like most of them), that would have been it, or at least even more waiting.

Unless you are making the point that EVs are only meant to be driven within some half of their range, round trip from home and no further (and this assuming home charging which all won't have), there will come a time when you have to rely on charging infrastructure. No matter how well you understand your car, then you will be reaching beyond its range and - just like on an ICE - that's where the infrastructure comes into play.

It isn't completely unreasonable to say, in many places, that the "incident just reinforces the idea that in the real, unpredictable world that we live in, 100 per cent electric vehicles and the charging points that they rely on just aren’t up to the job". Unless one defines their job as way-below-range commute only and I'd be hard-pressed to find any ICE where one would say that of them, no matter their range.

Infrastructure matters A LOT. Criticizing EVs for lack thereof is perfectly fair. (Not to say the article in question was perfectly fair, because it was not.)

 

[ecarfan]

@AnxietyRanger, you make some very good points. Perhaps the most reasonable conclusion one should draw from the article is that at the present time, for many people, short-range EVs are unreliable for trips beyond their max range unless you know in advance that your charge points, including your backup charge points, are highly reliable. Which means that in most cases short-range EVs should not be used for long range trips at this time.

And this illustrates perfectly why Tesla made the smart decision to build their own high speed charging network that they could control for quality and reliability and not have to rely on third parties.

And the article fails to mention that, and makes it sound like all EVs are risky for trips beyond their range. It closes with a blanket statement condemning EVs. Which of course makes for a stronger click-bait headline.

 

[MarkR]

Kinda sounds like the author 1) isn't very bright, 2) doesn't plan, 3) bought the wrong car, and/or should live in a country, unlike the UK, that currently has a better charging infrastructure.

He just ought to buy a Tesla, but needs to wait a while for the UK Tesla SpC's to be built out.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger, you make some very good points. Perhaps the most reasonable conclusion one should draw from the article is that at the present time, for many people, short-range EVs are unreliable for trips beyond their max range unless you know in advance that your charge points, including your backup charge points, are highly reliable. Which means that in most cases short-range EVs should not be used for long range trips at this time.

And this illustrates perfectly why Tesla made the smart decision to build their own high speed charging network that they could control for quality and reliability and not have to rely on third parties.

And the article fails to mention that, and makes it sound like all EVs are risky for trips beyond their range. It closes with a blanket statement condemning EVs. Which of course makes for a stronger click-bait headline.

Very well said. I agree with all the points.

 

[MarkR]

And the article fails to mention that, and makes it sound like all EVs are risky for trips beyond their range.

To my thinking, all CARS, EV or not) are risky for trips beyond their range.

 

[Jaff]

Paul, I hope you insisted that your passengers who gave you the bad data were the ones walking to the gas station for a jerry can full...:wink:

Boy, that's tough luck!

I ran out of gas in my old Buick Century driving to my folks place in rural Wisconsin during a holiday weekend. I forgot to fuel up at the city and gas stations in small towns were all closed. This was before pay-at-the-pump, smartphones, gps, etc.

More recently I ran out of gas in my prius, I intended to get gas at my freeway exit, but that exit had been recently constructed and had no gas stations. After the gas engine konked out I was still able to continue on for 4 more miles on the battery and could have made it to the next town, but my passengers sent me in the wrong direction.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

To my thinking, all CARS, EV or not) are risky for trips beyond their range.

I think it would be fair to say, though, ICE cars are much less risky beyond their range than EVs currently - on average - are. 100 years of gasoline infrastructure building, as well as the quick nature of filling up vs. charging up, simply makes the difference. That doesn't mean there aren't underdeveloped gasoline infrastructure areas (and human error) where ICE range anxiety can occur, it just means there are way more underdeveloped EV infrastructure areas, so the risk is higher with the latter. Also, because charging an EV is a slow thing, the risk of charging location being unavailable for an extended perior (due to another car loitering there) is higher than with gasoline.

 

[MarkR]

I think it would be fair to say, though, ICE cars are much less risky beyond their range than EVs currently - on average - are. 100 years of gasoline infrastructure building, as well as the quick nature of filling up vs. charging up, simply makes the difference. That doesn't mean there aren't underdeveloped gasoline infrastructure areas (and human error) where ICE range anxiety can occur, it just means there are way more underdeveloped EV infrastructure areas, so the risk is higher with the latter. Also, because charging an EV is a slow thing, the risk of charging location being unavailable for an extended perior (due to another car loitering there) is higher than with gasoline.

You are, of course, quick correct. My point was that driving beyond the range of any vehicle is pretty dumb. The reality is that people DO run out of gas because they don't think of the need to fill up. Having driven a BEV for the past 2+ years, I'm probably more acutely aware of the need to plan trips and probably less likely than the average ICE driver to exhaust my "fuel" supply.

 

[ecarfan]

Many times in my life I have seen people walking along the side of the road with a gas can in their hand...

 

[CliffG]

Many times in my life I have seen people walking along the side of the road with a gas can in their hand...

Yeah. Just imagine being able to walk along the side of the road with jerry can sized ultracapacitor with, say, 20-50 rated miles of charge...

 

[dpeilow]

Kinda sounds like the author 1) isn't very bright, 2) doesn't plan, 3) bought the wrong car, and/or should live in a country, unlike the UK, that currently has a better charging infrastructure.

He just ought to buy a Tesla, but needs to wait a while for the UK Tesla SpC's to be built out.

The author didn't buy the car. He's a journalist who has borrowed one from the test fleet. This highlights the problems of manufacturers making exaggerated range claims. I know a lot of people who are amazed the first time they drive a Leaf in cold weather and they are lucky to get 55 miles.

The UK has one of the highest densities of EV charging infrastructure anywhere. Unfortunately the choice of rapid chargers that have been used in the majority of cases are turning out to be highly unreliable. At the present time 25% are down. Like many owners, the author has found his plan A and B and sometimes C coming unstuck. How much should one reasonably plan for?

I know many hardened EV drivers who are sick of it and who will be going to PHEV for their next car. IMHO the article is actually the kind of kick up the ass the operators need. The EV manufacturers need to get a grip on the situation, particularly Nissan as it was their choice of charger in most cases and it's going to cost them repeat business.

 

[GSP]

To be truly useful, charging points need to be reliable. That requires more than one charging stall per location. Otherwise you are very likely to find it occupied when you arrive. It also requires reliable equipment and financing for prompt repairs and preventative maintence.

So far, only Tesla has thought this through and provided the needed infrasturcture. All of the other charging networks are just amateur-hour bush league attempts. They have not even done the basic network math, developed in the 19th century, to design their networks.

GSP

Capacity of Superchargers Using an Erlang-B Model