HPWC outdoor install?

[NigelM]

Because most of the cost is in the trenching, I always use conduit, and go up a size or two from the minimum. The larger conduit will make for easier pulls and will allow for future upgrades.

Tip: if you're trenching between buildings lay an extra (empty) conduit in the trench. Comes in mighty handy if you want to add coax or cat5/6 or something where the electric cable would cause interference if run through the same conduit.

 

[mknox]

Picked up an HPWC and installed in my garage a few days ago. I noticed the following two sections in the Safety Information section of the (what Tesla calls) "Updated" Wall Connector Install Guide:

I've seens tons of these installed outdoors myself, but I wonder why Tesla seems to recommend against it?

 

[mibaro2]

I think the part about the "electrical storm" is due to what happened when the tesla was close to a lightening strike at a SuperCharger.
Most of the hpwc outdoor installs I have seen have it protected in a box enclosure...but the enclosure is not waterproof.
Seems Tesla is being a bit more careful with the hpwc's and how to handle them.

 

[scaesare]

Most of the hpwc outdoor installs I have seen have it protected in a box enclosure...but the enclosure is not waterproof.

It's rated as a NEMA Type 3R enclosure, which is rated for indoor or outdoor use.

 

[mknox]

It's rated as a NEMA Type 3R enclosure, which is rated for indoor or outdoor use.

Then why does Tesla say you have to protect it from "moisture, water, liquid... at all times"? Based on that, you shouldn't even let dew accumulate on it.

 

[scaesare]

Then why does Tesla say you have to protect it from "moisture, water, liquid... at all times"? Based on that, you shouldn't even let dew accumulate on it.

I'm just passing on what it's rated as:

Here's the Enclosure Specifications

Maybe the warning is for the cable connector itself, and protects in case of usage problems in bad weather ...

 

[mknox]

I'm just passing on what it's rated as: ...

Yeah, I see that, but this kind of thing bugs me. I can just imagine insurance companies latching on to these "no damp location" warnings should anything ever happen, regardless of whether it was a moisture problem or not, and denying any claims. A 3R enclosure should not require that warning, but there it is.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

NEMA 3R does not mean waterproof. It can be used in indoor or outdoor applications.

"Type 3R Enclosures constructed for either indoor or outdoor use to provide a degreeof protection to personnel against access to hazardous parts; to provide a degree ofprotection of the equipment inside the enclosure against ingress of solid foreign objects(falling dirt); to provide a degree of protection with respect to harmful effects on theequipment due to the ingress of water (rain, sleet, snow); and that will be undamagedby the external formation of ice on the enclosure." Approved by NEMA Enclosures Section November 2007

I sell dry type transformers. A NEMA 3R enclosure on this has openings to allow air in, and let water escape the enclosure. It provides a degree of protection from falling rain. A true waterproof enclosure is NEMA 4 (gasketed/washdown/hosedown) or 4X (same, non-corroding).

NEMA 3R are commonly used outside where it may not be an issue for a perfect seal for the inner contents.

I suspect that water may have worked it's way into a few installations, and Tesla is covering it's butt (?) by putting the warning in the package

PS: My HPWC is mounted outside......I think it's safe enough, and I'm not planning on hosing it down

 

[Rocky_H]

Yeah, I see that, but this kind of thing bugs me. I can just imagine insurance companies latching on to these "no damp location" warnings should anything ever happen, regardless of whether it was a moisture problem or not, and denying any claims. A 3R enclosure should not require that warning, but there it is.

An insurance company can suck it when the official installation guide from Tesla says, "Approved for indoor or outdoor use."

 

[m6bigdog]

Yeah, I see that, but this kind of thing bugs me. I can just imagine insurance companies latching on to these "no damp location" warnings should anything ever happen, regardless of whether it was a moisture problem or not, and denying any claims. A 3R enclosure should not require that warning, but there it is.

The HPWC has 3 parts to the conditions of use: the enclosure location, connector exposure and limitation on use
The enclosure is approved for 3R location.
The usage warning are for the EV connector and limitation on HPWC use.

If the wall connector is used when it is wet (user holding the connector standing on concrete) it could potentially shock the user, however if everything worked correctly the GFCI would prevent a lethal electrical shock. The limitation also include allowing the HPWC to be uses when it is raining on the car

So the HPWC is approved for 3R location but cannot be used if any of the warning conditions exist, such as moisture, water, liquids, inclement weather.

 

[Cottonwood]

Yeah, I see that, but this kind of thing bugs me. I can just imagine insurance companies latching on to these "no damp location" warnings should anything ever happen, regardless of whether it was a moisture problem or not, and denying any claims. A 3R enclosure should not require that warning, but there it is.

Tesla has installed HPWC's outside at many of their Service Centers... Take a look at Highland Park, IL - HPWC's as one example.

 

[mknox]

Tesla has installed HPWC's outside at many of their Service Centers... Take a look at Highland Park, IL - HPWC's as one example.

Yeah, they're everywhere outdoors. That's why I brought it up. When I brought my brand new one home last week I noticed the warning about it in my installation guide and it made me curious.

- - - Updated - - -

An insurance company can suck it when the official installation guide from Tesla says, "Approved for indoor or outdoor use."

I couldn't find that anywhere in my installation guide. The only reference I could find to "indoor" and "outdoor" had to do with the recommended minimum mounting height.

 

[Rocky_H]

I couldn't find that anywhere in my installation guide. The only reference I could find to "indoor" and "outdoor" had to do with the recommended minimum mounting height.

Go the Model S page on Tesla's website. Click on the page for Charging, and scroll to the bottom. They have PDF files which are installation instructions for the 14-50 outlet and for the HPWC. In the PDF, it's printed right there in the first several lines of the HPWC instructions.

 

[mknox]

Go the Model S page on Tesla's website. Click on the page for Charging, and scroll to the bottom. They have PDF files which are installation instructions for the 14-50 outlet and for the HPWC. In the PDF, it's printed right there in the first several lines of the HPWC instructions.

Yep. Thanks, I see that on the one-page spec sheet. I was referring to the 20-odd page Installation Guide that came with the device and, at least in terms of the Warnings in the Safety Information page, seems to contradict that.

 

[FlasherZ]

I've seens tons of these installed outdoors myself, but I wonder why Tesla seems to recommend against it?

I guess it depends on what your definition of "severe" is in "severe rain, snow, electrical storm, or other inclement weather". And given that even the US Supreme Court said in the past couple of weeks that words don't necessarily mean their plain reading and meaning, I guess this is one of those cases.

From what I've been able to gather from the construction of the device, the wording used by Tesla (indoor / outdoor use), as well as Tesla's own application of them, I'd say there's a pretty strong case that they intend it for use outdoors and what you found in the safety information may be CYA lawyerspeak.

(Note: not passing judgment on the SCOTUS decisions at all, and it's not necessarily reflective of my political opinions or opinions of the rulings themselves - I'm merely pointing out that the justices in the majority even admit in the ruling that the prima facie reading of the words used by Congress need to be superceded by intent.)

 

[m6bigdog]

I guess it depends on what your definition of "severe" is in "severe rain, snow, electrical storm, or other inclement weather". And given that even the US Supreme Court said in the past couple of weeks that words don't necessarily mean their plain reading and meaning, I guess this is one of those cases.

From what I've been able to gather from the construction of the device, the wording used by Tesla (indoor / outdoor use), as well as Tesla's own application of them, I'd say there's a pretty strong case that they intend it for use outdoors and what you found in the safety information may be CYA lawyerspeak.

(Note: not passing judgment on the SCOTUS decisions at all, and it's not necessarily reflective of my political opinions or opinions of the rulings themselves - I'm merely pointing out that the justices in the majority even admit in the ruling that the prima facie reading of the words used by Congress need to be superceded by intent.)

In plain speak.
HPWC is approved for outdoor location/installation but has warning against use (charging the MS) during conditions, such as/with moisture, water, liquids, inclement weather.

 

[mknox]

In plain speak.
HPWC is approved for outdoor location/installation but has warning against use (charging the MS) during conditions, such as/with moisture, water, liquids, inclement weather.

Without trying to put too fine a point on it (and obviously failing) Tesla does say to "Protect the Wall Connector (not the cable or the charging handle) from moisture, water, liquid and foreign objects at all times". This says you shouldn't even allow dew to accumulate on it (moisture).

 

[m6bigdog]

Without trying to put too fine a point on it (and obviously failing) Tesla does say to "Protect the Wall Connector (not the cable or the charging handle) from moisture, water, liquid and foreign objects at all times". This says you shouldn't even allow dew to accumulate on it (moisture).

I'm not going to defend the TESLA HPWC Installation manual as IMHO it is too brief, non-specific and/or cryptic for both the installer and end-user.

I anticipate the warning statements:

"Protect the Wall Connector from moisture, water, liquid, and foreign objects at all times. If any exist or appear to have entered, damaged, or corroded the Wall Connector, do not use the Wall Connector."
Is as stated, an "at all times" condition that infers when the cover is off (as in entered); such as, during installation or service in the outdoor location.

and

"Do not use the Wall Connector when you, the vehicle, or the Wall Connector is exposed to severe rain, snow, electrical storm, or other inclement weather"
Is the warning for the end-user as to the conditions for using the HPWC to charge the MS safely. I anticipate this would allow charging the MS during non-inclement weather such as light rain, snow, etc.

Not that this is the end-all and be-all, however the HPWC has the UL Listed Mark (NRTL Mark is an NEC requirement for electrical installation) which means that UL performed a limited evaluated of the HPWC and manual so they at least meet the intent of the UL 2494 Electrical Vehicle Service Equipment safety standard (attached 2013 version, if you want some night time reading material).

 

[FlasherZ]

I reached out to my friends within Tesla. As expected, it's just a language specificity thing - the intention is that you should protect the wall connector's innards for moisture, water, liquid, and foreign objects. Specifically, "the Wall Connector has a NEMA 3R and IP44 rated, as long as the conduit and wiring entering the unit is sealed, then it should be fine for most outdoor installations" was the response I received.

 

[scaesare]

I reached out to my friends within Tesla. As expected, it's just a language specificity thing - the intention is that you should protect the wall connector's innards for moisture, water, liquid, and foreign objects. Specifically, "the Wall Connector has a NEMA 3R and IP44 rated, as long as the conduit and wiring entering the unit is sealed, then it should be fine for most outdoor installations" was the response I received.

Thanks for that. Any specifics about the connector and/or charging in inclement weather?