How have you handled accident damage (as in I'm looking for other's experience)

[Seven7]

Whooooops

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I mentioned this in the other thread, but if anyone wants to sell their previously damaged Model S, I'd be looking to pick up a well depreciated car. This would also allow you to properly prove the depreciated value to the insurance company.

Yes, I remember you offered me 25k for my 110k Tesla, why don't you go....

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IOIachampcar, I sent you an IM and if your interested in getting an attorney that handles diminished value claims on contingency I have one lined up, I'm also going to ask to be reimbursed for gas money, the law in Fl. right now is that the driver of the rental car pays for the fuel, but they probably didn't take electric cars into the equation when they put that law into effect. I'll be in touch with you. Don't get discouraged and if you can get your car sent to Dayas in Longwood they have a few Teslas there now, including mine.

 

[Crispix]

Not sure how relevant this is, but I'm going through a similar process and so far it's been mostly painless. My red MS was hit by a flying tarp that blew off a truck on Monday. There must have been some metal hooks because the front fender is dented and there's a gaping hole in the right rear door. Of course the truck wouldn't stop and the cops were, well, let's call them "unmotivated".

Took it to the Tesla-authorized body shop in San Diego and they quoted ~$7200 to replace the door, fender, and do the paintwork. Went to see the Geico gecko and he wrote a check on the spot for about half that amount, saying the shop has to submit additional paperwork to get the higher labor rate they quoted me. Not to worry! I've been assured by the shop and by Geico that I will only have to pay the deductible (comprehensive, not collision because it was flying debris) and the shop will work out the $ difference directly with Geico. And I believe them: both the insurance company and the shop say they've done this before with each other and I don't have to do anything else.

So now it's a waiting game for the parts from Tesla Motors, then I'll drop it off for a week. The car is drivable, just painful to look at. I'm told the paint job is a PITA for multi coat colors. Stupid truck.

In any case, I can't imagine going through the trouble and expense of getting a whole new car because of some cosmetic body work. I don't think I've ever had a car without some sort of body work done on it, so diminished value over the life of the car isn't worrisome to me. If anything, I'd go postal on the insurance company described by lolachamp. I'll post again if anything changes, but so far, I'm a fan of the gecko.

 

[lolachampcar]

I really have to improve my writing skills…..

I meant to say that I have no interest in fighting with the insurance company through the repair process followed by the diminished value discussion only to have to manage a repair and have a repaired car moving forward. Instead, I ordered a replacement car and will dispose of the damaged car as is…… I am also starting a dialog with the insurance company for the person who hit my wife. When it is all said and done, my wife will be back where she was yesterday morning (in a new S85) and I will have paid for the depreciation associated with having owned the current car for three months and having driven it 3500 miles.

At no point was I considering "letting them off the hook". If I am going to have to deal with getting a fair number for the repair followed by getting diminished value I might as well avoid the hassle of going through the repair process and the associated Corolla rental ordeal. In addition, a correct and proper sale of the damaged car puts the issue of diminished value to bed. The car was owned for three months and driven 3500 miles. We can discuss reasonable depreciation for that but all else has been defined by the sale of the car. This is what it is worth because this is what someone was willing to pay for it.

WRT having my insurance company involved in any size, shape or form, I can not imagine what they could offer that I can not achieve on my own. I see no value in having another party involved in this process especially if their motives and interests might differ from mine.

 

[markb1]

Not sure how relevant this is, but I'm going through a similar process and so far it's been mostly painless. My red MS was hit by a flying tarp that blew off a truck on Monday. There must have been some metal hooks because the front fender is dented and there's a gaping hole in the right rear door. Of course the truck wouldn't stop and the cops were, well, let's call them "unmotivated".

Took it to the Tesla-authorized body shop in San Diego and they quoted ~$7200 to replace the door, fender, and do the paintwork. Went to see the Geico gecko and he wrote a check on the spot for about half that amount, saying the shop has to submit additional paperwork to get the higher labor rate they quoted me. Not to worry! I've been assured by the shop and by Geico that I will only have to pay the deductible (comprehensive, not collision because it was flying debris) and the shop will work out the $ difference directly with Geico. And I believe them: both the insurance company and the shop say they've done this before with each other and I don't have to do anything else.

So now it's a waiting game for the parts from Tesla Motors, then I'll drop it off for a week. The car is drivable, just painful to look at. I'm told the paint job is a PITA for multi coat colors. Stupid truck.

In any case, I can't imagine going through the trouble and expense of getting a whole new car because of some cosmetic body work. I don't think I've ever had a car without some sort of body work done on it, so diminished value over the life of the car isn't worrisome to me. If anything, I'd go postal on the insurance company described by lolachamp. I'll post again if anything changes, but so far, I'm a fan of the gecko.

I'm insured by GEICO and I probably used the same shop you are talking about. (Amato's?) GEICO wouldn't make an estimate on the spot, since the car wasn't in their database, and so they had me leave it at Amato's for a day so the adjuster could go over it with them. They agreed to pay Amato's estimate minus deductible, and they paid it to Amato's directly. Then they mailed me a check for my deductible, since the other driver's insurance accepted responsibility. (This surpised me, because the other driver didn't have enough insurance to cover the whole cost, so it seems like GEICO must be eating thousands of dollars on this.)

I'm pretty happy with the way my insurance handled it.

 

[Crispix]

I'm insured by GEICO and I probably used the same shop you are talking about. (Amato's?) GEICO wouldn't make an estimate on the spot, since the car wasn't in their database, and so they had me leave it at Amato's for a day so the adjuster could go over it with them.

markb1, I think my process was streamlined a bit because I went to Amato's first, and then took their paperwork to the Geico adjuster. Still, the conversation was like this:

Me: "Want to see the estimate from Amato's?"
Gecko: "No, I'm good."
[three minutes later…]
Gecko: "Hey, can I see that paperwork?"

So yeah, I think the adjusters need help because the Model S isn't in databases yet. I know I'm derailing the thread, but were you happy with the outcome? I'm assuming and hoping that they did great work for you.

 

[markb1]

Actually, I took my car to Amato's first, too. Probably just a different adjuster.

Reasonably happy with the outcome, but they still owe me a new chrome molding (the part around the windows). They replaced it as part of the repair, but I noticed it was scratched. I'm super observant about my car, though.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I see. So the plan is to get compensated by the insurance company directly, and sell the car in damaged condition. Definitely misunderstood what you wrote. If that's the plan, there's certainly no benefit to going through your own insurance company. Especially in FL, where it would appear it precludes you from a diminished value claim.

:redface: If you pardon my insensitivity, it gave me a bit of a chuckle when I realized this will be your fourth Model S. I think you might hold the record!

Best of luck with the sale. Hope your wife is feeling better today.

 

[lolachampcar]

They got a chuckle out of it at Tesla as well. Although not my intention, it would appear I change cars like I change under ware

It is a bit of a different way of handling the problem but I really do not have any desire to deal with the whole accident tread mill that insurance companies are all to eager to put you on. The only one it benefits is the insurance company and they have the ability to drag things out and wear you down. I will not be playing that game this time and it will be interesting to see how this new approach works. For me, the math is simple. A replacement car has been ordered so State Farm's obligation is replacement cost minus depreciation for 3 months/3500 miles minus the yield from the sale. The damaged car is only worth what someone will pay for it. If I get any pushback from SF, I'll suggest we send the car to auction. If they want to be a pain I see no reason why I should manage a retail sale to mitigate their loss.

Popcorn anyone?


Signature updated.

 

[dennis]

For me, the math is simple. A replacement car has been ordered so State Farm's obligation is replacement cost minus depreciation for 3 months/3500 miles minus the yield from the sale.

Don't forget to hit them for the FL sales tax you will have to pay on the loss portion of the diff between your new purchase price and the "trade-in" sales price.

 

[andrewket]

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

 

[GlennAlanBerry]

@lolachampcar

As a fellow Tesla owner, I am totally on your side and I wish you well in your efforts. Speaking as a former claims adjuster, I have a few thoughts though. Maybe this will help you get ready for the other side's arguments.

1. You are buying a replacement Model S that is exactly the same as your damaged Model S (although it will be a 2014 instead of a 2013)
2. You are going to sell the damaged Model S as is (and the buyer will not get the $7500 Federal tax credit)
3. You are going to file a property damage claim against the other driver's insurance company
A. Have you filed the PD claim with them already?
B. Have you gotten a repair estimate yet?
4. Your claim is going to be for the full replacement cost of the new Model S, minus whatever you get from selling the damaged Model S, minus the depreciation for mileage and age on the damaged Model S

Just throwing out some numbers:

New 2014 S85 including sales tax $90,000
Depreciation on old car - $5,000
Proceeds from sale of old car - $50,000
Net value of PD claim $35,000

If I were the PD claims adjuster for the other driver's insurance company, I would have a lot of issues with your PD claim (depending on how you decide to handle and document what you do). If you just show up three or four months from now, with your new Tesla paperwork, your bill of sale from the old Tesla, and your post accident photos, and without a repair estimate, I would want to know why you sold the car for what appears to be relatively minor cosmetic damage. Then, I would write an estimate to repair the damage off of the photos, looking to repair, rather than replace the various major panels involved. I would also include the cost of a standard rental car for the estimated time the car would have been in the shop for repairs. Let's say this comes out to $10,000, total. That is what I would offer you. I would argue that a reasonable person would not have sold the damaged car without repairing it. I would also bring up the fact that you replaced a 2013 Model S with a 2014 Model S, and that the value of the damaged car was further reduced $7500 by the federal tax credit. I would also bring up the fact that your are going to get another $7500 tax credit for the 2014 Tesla.

As a PD claimant, they absolutely view you as the enemy, and they are going to fight for every penny on the claim. They are going to make you an offer, perhaps negotiate up somewhat, and then essentially dare you to sue them.

You should be able to argue that the panels have to be replaced because they are aluminum (and hopefully you have a repair estimate or two to document that). Hopefully, you can get the estimated cost of repairs to a higher value during your negotiations. I really think you are going to have an uphill battle here. Even if they buy into your replacement strategy, they are going to try to knock off the $7500 tax credit on both sides, lowering the value of your claim by $15K.

At any rate, I hope you get the outcome you are looking for.

 

[qwk]

@lolachampcar

As a fellow Tesla owner, I am totally on your side and I wish you well in your efforts. Speaking as a former claims adjuster, I have a few thoughts though. Maybe this will help you get ready for the other side's arguments.

1. You are buying a replacement Model S that is exactly the same as your damaged Model S (although it will be a 2014 instead of a 2013)
2. You are going to sell the damaged Model S as is (and the buyer will not get the $7500 Federal tax credit)
3. You are going to file a property damage claim against the other driver's insurance company
A. Have you filed the PD claim with them already?
B. Have you gotten a repair estimate yet?
4. Your claim is going to be for the full replacement cost of the new Model S, minus whatever you get from selling the damaged Model S, minus the depreciation for mileage and age on the damaged Model S

Just throwing out some numbers:

New 2014 S85 including sales tax $90,000
Depreciation on old car - $5,000
Proceeds from sale of old car - $50,000
Net value of PD claim $35,000

If I were the PD claims adjuster for the other driver's insurance company, I would have a lot of issues with your PD claim (depending on how you decide to handle and document what you do). If you just show up three or four months from now, with your new Tesla paperwork, your bill of sale from the old Tesla, and your post accident photos, and without a repair estimate, I would want to know why you sold the car for what appears to be relatively minor cosmetic damage. Then, I would write an estimate to repair the damage off of the photos, looking to repair, rather than replace the various major panels involved. I would also include the cost of a standard rental car for the estimated time the car would have been in the shop for repairs. Let's say this comes out to $10,000, total. That is what I would offer you. I would argue that a reasonable person would not have sold the damaged car without repairing it. I would also bring up the fact that you replaced a 2013 Model S with a 2014 Model S, and that the value of the damaged car was further reduced $7500 by the federal tax credit. I would also bring up the fact that your are going to get another $7500 tax credit for the 2014 Tesla.

As a PD claimant, they absolutely view you as the enemy, and they are going to fight for every penny on the claim. They are going to make you an offer, perhaps negotiate up somewhat, and then essentially dare you to sue them.

You should be able to argue that the panels have to be replaced because they are aluminum (and hopefully you have a repair estimate or two to document that). Hopefully, you can get the estimated cost of repairs to a higher value during your negotiations. I really think you are going to have an uphill battle here. Even if they buy into your replacement strategy, they are going to try to knock off the $7500 tax credit on both sides, lowering the value of your claim by $15K.

At any rate, I hope you get the outcome you are looking for.

...and that's when you say, my wife was also hurt in the accident.

 

[lolachampcar]

Glenn,

You are spot on for all points mentioned.

Here is my logic to date.
State Farm (the at fault party's insurance company) just completed a rear quarter panel replacement and door touch up at our local Tesla authorized body shop. The initial allowance was $7700 which grew to a final $23K after four or five adjustments or addendems. Each time the body shop had to educate the new adjuster handing the increase. My damage is as above plus two door shells so I am using $25K as a conservative number. State Farm then offered the owner $8K in diminished value. The owner rejected that offer and engaged an attorney.

Using the $25K damage number and $8K diminished value offer yields $33K. The net on the replacement car is around $82K. Depreciation is $6500 using Tesla's rather painful $1K per month and $1 per mile. Those numbers yield $42.5K. This number does not take into account the sales tax on the replacement car.

My wife has completed a statement of fact and asked State Farm to deal with me on the administrative side. I've put together a note letting them know I've ordered a replacement car and offering to forgo a (similar) rental if they agree to bracket any depreciation to to the period of time between our taking delivery of the car and the accident. If they refuse, I will seek out a MS or similar rental and deposit my wife's car at the local Tesla Service Center.

So, no, I do not plan on dropping a bomb shell on the adjuster nor would I expect him/her to react well if I did. I most certainly would not. I am also offering to manage a retail sale which should yield a higher return on the damaged car and leave open the option for a courtesy trade through Telsa on the new car to mitigate the Florida State Sales Tax impact. If SF takes issue with the retail sale, I'll politely suggest they run the car though auction and forgo the chance for the sales tax mitigation.

What I really want to avoid is the auto repair treadmill where the adjuster controls the pace and quality of the experience followed by an abstract negotiation on diminished value. If the car sells, it is worth what someone was willing to pay for it and thus its value is determined.

By chance can you shed some light on how adjusters handled diminished value?

 

[GlennAlanBerry]

In California, in the mid-1990s, we did not deal with diminished value. The thinking was that if a non total-loss car was repaired with factory parts at a good quality shop, it was going to be just as good after the repairs as it was before the accident. The idea of insurance is that you are made whole after a loss, not worse and not better.

I think State Farm is going to have a big problem with your plan of buying a new car and selling the old car as a way of dealing with this, since your old car is not even close to being a total loss vehicle. Given that, they are not going to care whether you do a retail sale or threaten an auction, since that whole line of argument is moot in their view. They owe you for the cost of repairing your vehicle, plus rental car costs (only while your car is actually being repaired). Since Florida apparently has the concept of diminution of value, that will also be part of your PD claim. Since your car is drivable, parking it at the Tesla SC before the repair parts are available is not going to be seen as reasonable.

If you have not done so already, I would get at least a couple of repair estimates from the best/most expensive body shops you can find. Whether you like it or not, the value of your PD claim is going to start with the cost to repair your damaged car (whether you actually do repair it or not). You want to start high and go down, not the other way around. If your wife is injured, your PD claim turns into a bodily injury (BI) claim, which means you will be dealing with more senior and experienced claims adjusters. If she is injured, she needs to seek treatment sooner rather than later. Having a BI claim gives you some more leverage for the total value of your claim, although it does not affect the PD portion.

Keep in mind that State Farm could care less about your feelings or how much hassle any of this is for you. Even though insurance companies are evil and everyone hates them, I am convinced you would have a much better experience going through your own insurance company for the repairs. As "an insured" and as a customer, they have a lot more incentive to treat you well. Since liability is clear, they know they will get their money back by subrogating against State Farm.

I am really sorry this has happened to you and your wife. It really sucks. Unfortunately, based on my experience as a BI adjuster, I am afraid your car swap plan may not work as well as you hope for your property damage claim with State Farm. I hope you prove me wrong!

 

[lolachampcar]

Glenn,

I appreciate your input and agree that it is unlikely to turn out as I would like. That being said, I am in a position to choose if I will or will not participate in State Farms established method of dealing with claims. The process is designed to favor the adjuster and to simply wear out the claimant. People accept that they have to drive around in a damaged car if the car is drivable. I do not. The car did not look like crap on the morning of the 12th and there is no reason why my wife should be driving a damaged car on the afternoon of the 12th apart from saving State Farm some money.

I'm going to treat this as an education (mine) and proceed under the theory that my wife should be put back exactly where she was before the accident and that I should do my best to decrease the loss which includes a retail sale on the car. I believe there is sufficient material in the most recent claim that State Farm paid to fully define the PD element and we already have a starting point for DV. If all I net is those two and the sale of the car, I can live with that. I believe it should be better and my cost of money is low enough to follow this path, get my education and perhaps even prevail.

I do find it interesting that the adjuster's point of view is that no rental is required if the car is drivable. I suspect a Corolla is also similarly acceptable as a rental while the car is being repaired. Both these fail on the "made whole" theory and yet they are accepted practice. I will also keep accurate notes on my time. It is also acceptable practice that claimants are obliged to follow direction and jump through hoops without compensation. Should legal action be required, I'll present that bill as well at half the body shop's hourly rate. When SF complains, I'll produce tax returns from my last "employment" and suggest they use that equivalent rate instead

Again, I do not dispute anything you have said and agree that it is the state of affairs. There is so much fraud in this world that insurance companies have significantly tightened their loss prevention guidelines at the expense of honest claimants. I'm an honest claimant and I am going to test their resolve on that way of doing business. Things become accepted practice when people accept the practice. I may not succeed but I most certainly do not need to accept the practice.

I forgot to mention above that the body shop that did the most recent MS rear quarter repair offered to give me a quote. I told the owner that I really did not want to waste his time writing up a quote when I would not be repairing the car. I'm sure I could pay him for his time but then we have wasted money on information which State Farm already posses. That seems odd at a minimum and ludicrous at the extreme.

WRT to State Farm caring less about my feelings, this is business. I will treat them with respect. If they choose not to value my time or otherwise choose to be rude and uncooperative I will continue to treat them in a polite fashion but cease to have any concern for mitigating their losses or otherwise have consideration for their concerns.

Although I have not verified this, I've been told that using your own insurance company to handle a claim eliminates the potential for diminished value. In addition, my insurance company offers no value here while simultaneously introducing another party with a separate agenda.

 

[Seven7]

I would at the minimum talk to an attorney about your plans of selling the car to establish a value. In my opinion it's a great way to get an exact value of the car, but at the same time I can just hear some insurance adjuster screaming that you sold it to cheap, their not paying, blah blah blah....

 

[jkeyser14]

Whooooops

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Yes, I remember you offered me 25k for my 110k Tesla, why don't you go....

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Your wrecked & depreciated Model S is not worth 110k. What I did was offer to buy your car so you could claim true depreciation value. If you didn't like my offer that is fine, but you shouldn't feel personally offended.

 

[KalOrtPor]

I'm in a similar situation and was thinking of something along the lines of what you proposed. Some of the differences:

 

[KalOrtPor]

Sorry, didn't realize just hitting enter would submit and you can't edit, I'll be more careful...Anyway, some of the differences:

1. The guy who hit me was a hit and run so I am only able to go through my own insurance, for now. We think we have figured out the person who did it as it was somebody local (Royersford, PA), and we will consider allowing him to come forward willingly before turning it over to the police. The car was an old beater that fishtailed into mine and struck with its right rear bumper and sorta bounced into it, which is why the damage was confined to a small area and no broken bits were found. Just a bit longer while we cross our t's and such, but for now just my own insurance.

2. The car's wheel was off-axis meaning the axle was involved, suspension components, and possibly the frame. We're at $12,000 just for the rear quarter panel alone. They haven't gotten to the suspension yet. So in my case, the damage is not only cosmetic, but contingent on the repair, the drive quality has been affected.

3. The car was 5 days old and only about 200 miles on the clock. It is now December and I am paying a lot of money for a car I likely will not be driving again until at least February. If I was going to be without a MS this long (I ordered in September), I could have just waited and gotten a January delivery and 2014 model year.

4. Being so new, I have not yet registered it, and have not paid the 6% sales tax on the purchase price (which would put it at somewhere around $7,000, so if I were to offload it in favor of a new one, I'm already that much less in the hole).

So on the one hand, it is being examined by top men at one of the highest regarded shops in the industry, and they should be able to make it good as new (some would argue they can paint better than Tesla itself can). The insurance company was cooperative and didn't even try suggesting alternatives, only saying "well if Tesla thinks it should go there, that's where we'll take it." But even if the car looks and rides perfect, I'm out tens of thousands in resale value. I also am OCD about my cars and something just won't quite sit right with me in the back of my mind, knowing that my car isn't 100% original anymore. I freak out at tiny specks and always park far away to avoid any door dings.

This might be a fine time to mention I'm glad I went with the solid white paint instead of the pearl! I much preferred the gleaming bright, sporty look of the solid white over the richer, but less loud pearl white (dazzles under the night lights I gotta say!)....So I too wonder what to do about this. The car is practically brand new and I've already suffered a large loss completely out of my hands. If there's a way to pursue diminished value or the difference between this car's value and a new Model S (which, were I to order today, would likely arrive before mine is finished being fixed!), I'm all ears.

 

[andrewket]

@lolachampcar

As a fellow Tesla owner, I am totally on your side and I wish you well in your efforts. Speaking as a former claims adjuster, I have a few thoughts though. Maybe this will help you get ready for the other side's arguments.

1. You are buying a replacement Model S that is exactly the same as your damaged Model S (although it will be a 2014 instead of a 2013)
2. You are going to sell the damaged Model S as is (and the buyer will not get the $7500 Federal tax credit)
3. You are going to file a property damage claim against the other driver's insurance company
A. Have you filed the PD claim with them already?
B. Have you gotten a repair estimate yet?
4. Your claim is going to be for the full replacement cost of the new Model S, minus whatever you get from selling the damaged Model S, minus the depreciation for mileage and age on the damaged Model S

Just throwing out some numbers:

New 2014 S85 including sales tax $90,000
Depreciation on old car - $5,000
Proceeds from sale of old car - $50,000
Net value of PD claim $35,000

If I were the PD claims adjuster for the other driver's insurance company, I would have a lot of issues with your PD claim (depending on how you decide to handle and document what you do). If you just show up three or four months from now, with your new Tesla paperwork, your bill of sale from the old Tesla, and your post accident photos, and without a repair estimate, I would want to know why you sold the car for what appears to be relatively minor cosmetic damage. Then, I would write an estimate to repair the damage off of the photos, looking to repair, rather than replace the various major panels involved. I would also include the cost of a standard rental car for the estimated time the car would have been in the shop for repairs. Let's say this comes out to $10,000, total. That is what I would offer you. I would argue that a reasonable person would not have sold the damaged car without repairing it. I would also bring up the fact that you replaced a 2013 Model S with a 2014 Model S, and that the value of the damaged car was further reduced $7500 by the federal tax credit. I would also bring up the fact that your are going to get another $7500 tax credit for the 2014 Tesla.

As a PD claimant, they absolutely view you as the enemy, and they are going to fight for every penny on the claim. They are going to make you an offer, perhaps negotiate up somewhat, and then essentially dare you to sue them.

You should be able to argue that the panels have to be replaced because they are aluminum (and hopefully you have a repair estimate or two to document that). Hopefully, you can get the estimated cost of repairs to a higher value during your negotiations. I really think you are going to have an uphill battle here. Even if they buy into your replacement strategy, they are going to try to knock off the $7500 tax credit on both sides, lowering the value of your claim by $15K.

At any rate, I hope you get the outcome you are looking for.

Do you think a claims adjuster knows about the tax credit? I'm also not sure if they can legally deduct it. It's a credit against my taxes. If I don't have sufficient income I don't get the value. An insurance company can't make that assumption. The selling price is the selling price- what the buyer paid Tesla.