How do Tesla cameras self clean?

[electronblue]

There is no mental gymnastics, I assure you. I am not excusing Tesla of anything. I said "probably". I was just offering my guesses. I was thinking that since FC will be autonomous with driver supervision that it might qualify as L3, especially since the next stage of FC when driver supervision is removed would most likely be L4. But clearly, I was wrong. I should be more careful when talking about the levels of autonomy. The fact is that we don't know what level of autonomy FC. It is all mostly guesses at this point.

You have to see why it feels almost as if you do it on purpose — excuse Tesla that is. Because we’ve been through this so many times.

Level 3 does not require driver supervision. That is the whole point. It is autonomous, though it requires driver to be there for a handover after a reasonable notice (say 10 seconds). That’s why it is called eyes off. That’s why Level 3 means you can read a book.

If you think Tesla’s ”Level 5 no geofence feature complete at end of 2019” means no driver supervision (at least as design intent/prototype level) required, only then does Level 3-5 make sense to you. Otherwise we know it will be Level 2 (as Levels 0-1 would not match).

 

[diplomat33]

You have to see why it feels almost as if you do it on purpose — excuse Tesla that is. Because we’ve been through this so many times.

Level 3 does not require driver supervision. That is the whole point. It is autonomous, though it requires driver to be there for a handover after a reasonable notice (say 10 seconds). That’s why it is called eyes off. That’s why Level 3 means you can read a book.

I already admitted that saying L3 was a mistake.

If you think Tesla’s ”Level 5 no geofence feature complete at end of 2019” means no driver supervision (at least as design intent/prototype level) required, only then does Level 3-5 make sense to you. Otherwise we know it will be Level 2 (as Levels 0-1 would not match).

A system is not automatically L2 just because it requires driver supervision. Autonomous prototypes can require driver supervision. Certainly, the name "L5 feature complete no geofence" would seem to imply a design intent of a L5 prototype. And a L5 prototype can require driver supervision. So I think it is reasonable to expect that Tesla plans Feature Complete to have the design intent of a L5 prototype with driver supervision. Of course, Tesla has already said that it will require driver supervision.

 

[electronblue]

A system is not automatically L2 just because it requires driver supervision. Autonomous prototypes can require driver supervision.

Sure, that is why I said:

If you think Tesla’s ”Level 5 no geofence feature complete at end of 2019” means no driver supervision (at least as design intent/prototype level) required, only then does Level 3-5 make sense to you. Otherwise we know it will be Level 2 (as Levels 0-1 would not match).

 

[diplomat33]

Sure, that is why I said:

Yes and that is why I am agreeing that FC could indeed have the design intent of L5. At least, that is what Tesla seems to be planning.

 

[banned-66611]

How will robotaxi work here?

Knowing Tesla it will park in the left hand lane and display a message saying "Robotaxi is in beta, and you must clean the sensors when commanded to. Tesla is not responsible if you fail to obey. Don't worry, we'll keep the AC running for when you return."

 

[boonedocks]

I already admitted that saying L3 was a mistake.

.

I don't actually agree with this. I believe L3 could "fairly" easily be enabled on long highway commutes. Probably do better and less accidents than ComeToMe Summon is doing at present. I seriously hate having to keep the amount of torque on the steering wheel for miles on end just to keep the nags at bay. If I was applying even the tiniest amount of the same torque I would be in the median or flying across 5 lanes of traffic. That is pretty ridiculous.....but we owe thanks to the YouTubeIdiots for that....

 

[diplomat33]

I don't actually agree with this. I believe L3 could "fairly" easily be enabled on long highway commutes. Probably do better and less accidents than ComeToMe Summon is doing at present. I seriously hate having to keep the amount of torque on the steering wheel for miles on end just to keep the nags at bay. If I was applying even the tiniest amount of the same torque I would be in the median or flying across 5 lanes of traffic. That is pretty ridiculous.....but we owe thanks to the YouTubeIdiots for that....

Yes, I agree that Tesla could probably do L3 highway fairly easily now, if they really focused on that. I would actually love it if they did. I am starting to really hate the nags now.

The reason I said L3 was a mistake was for a different reason. It was a mistake for me to say L3 because A) Tesla has not made any claims that Feature Complete would be L3 and B) I mischaracterized FC with driver supervision as equivalent to L3 when it is not.

 

[Bladerskb]

Yes, I agree that Tesla could probably do L3 highway fairly easily now, if they really focused on that. I would actually love it if they did. I am starting to really hate the nags now.

The reason I said L3 was a mistake was for a different reason. It was a mistake for me to say L3 because A) Tesla has not made any claims that Feature Complete would be L3 and B) I mischaracterized FC with driver supervision as equivalent to L3 when it is not.

@boonedocks

Do both of you realize that L3 highway (full speed, multi-lane change) is just as hard as L4 Highway?

AP/NOA still lacks fundamental basics that's needed. It still to this day accelerates and even changes lanes towards stationary objects/moving cars/truck trailers...etc

Heck it still doesnt detect debris.

 

[diplomat33]

@boonedocks

Do both of you realize that L3 highway (full speed, multi-lane change) is just as hard as L4 Highway?

I know that. L3 and L4 both need to be complete full autonomy. However, L3 has a slightly lower bar if I am not mistaken since L3 can request driver intervention in certain instances as long as it gives the driver sufficient advance notice whereas L4 is expected to handle everything. So, presumably, Tesla could give the driver advance notice to intervene in those instances where NOA is less reliable to make it L3 Highway before it is ready for L4 Highway.

It still to this day accelerates and even changes lanes towards stationary objects/moving cars/truck trailers...etc

I am not sure if that is true anymore. AP used to do with that stopped cars at red lights but I can testify that the behavior has been fixed in AP now so presumably, it is also fixed in NOA too.

Heck it still doesnt detect debris.

That is something that Tesla still needs to add yes before it could be L3+.

I don't think me or @boonedocks are suggesting that NOA is L3 now. I think we acknowledge that there is still important stuff that Tesla would need to do before NOA could be considered L3+. But I think we are saying that L3 Highway is within Tesla's grasp with more work. At least, that is how I read boone's "fairly easily" remark.

 

[boonedocks]

I know that. L3 and L4 both need to be complete full autonomy. However, L3 has a slightly lower bar if I am not mistaken since L3 can request driver intervention in certain instances as long as it gives the driver sufficient advance notice whereas L4 is expected to handle everything. So, presumably, Tesla could give the driver advance notice to intervene in those instances where NOA is less reliable to make it L3 Highway before it is ready for L4 Highway.



I am not sure if that is true anymore. AP used to do with that stopped cars at red lights but I can testify that the behavior has been fixed in AP now so presumably, it is also fixed in NOA too.



That is something that Tesla still needs to add yes before it could be L3+.

I don't think me or @boonedocks are suggesting that NOA is L3 now. I think we acknowledge that there is still important stuff that Tesla would need to do before NOA could be considered L3+. But I think we are saying that L3 Highway is within Tesla's grasp with more work. At least, that is how I read boone's "fairly easily" remark.

100% agree

 

[banned-66611]

However, L3 has a slightly lower bar if I am not mistaken since L3 can request driver intervention in certain instances as long as it gives the driver sufficient advance notice

Yes, but on a highway that actually makes it harder than L4 is some circumstances.

Imagine there is debris in the road. With L4 the car can see it fairly late and brake or steer around it. With L3 it has to see the debris really, really early so it can give the driver a good 20 seconds to fold away their newspaper, put down their supersize Coke, familiarize themselves with the danger and take some action to prevent a crash.

 

[diplomat33]

Yes, but on a highway that actually makes it harder than L4 is some circumstances.

Imagine there is debris in the road. With L4 the car can see it fairly late and brake or steer around it. With L3 it has to see the debris really, really early so it can give the driver a good 20 seconds to fold away their newspaper, put down their supersize Coke, familiarize themselves with the danger and take some action to prevent a crash.

I am not suggesting Tesla "do L3 highway" for things like debris. Like you said, the car would need to be able to react quickly for debris and not wait for the human to take control again. So Tesla would need to finish their full vision NN to detect and respond to debris at L4. That is why a L3 car still needs to be fully autonomous.

And the SAE just says L3 needs to give the driver "a few seconds" if I am not mistaken so I think 10 seconds would be enough.

But you can "do L3" for things where you can reasonably give the driver 10 seconds advance notice. For example, severe weather or road detours.

In fact, NOA notifies us now in advance when it is about to drop back to AP because we are approaching the end of an exit ramp. That seems like a very L3-ish feature to me.

How will Tesla's FSD handle severe weather where the sensors are not good enough to drive the car? I've been in severe thunderstorms with torrential rain where AP was limited. I imagine that our cars will either pull over on their own or notify the driver in advance that they will need to take over. The latter would be L3 if I am not mistaken.

 

[Johnbilt]

What about when a truck flings sticky mud passing you while you sit still? The side shield is positioned well to deflect mud coming from the front, but it is also possible for mud to be splashed on the car from behind. This could even happen while moving if the truck is moving much faster.
Does the tesla then stop or pull over if it can? Does it turn over control to the driver? What if there is no driver?
What about sabotage? Like with spray paint or a sticker? Don't underestimate the malicious nature of other humans.
My main concern is that the car MUST be able to cope with sudden camera disability while moving or Tesla will be responsible for SOMEBODY getting killed.

 

[diplomat33]

What about when a truck flings sticky mud passing you while you sit still? The side shield is positioned well to deflect mud coming from the front, but it is also possible for mud to be splashed on the car from behind. This could even happen while moving if the truck is moving much faster.
Does the tesla then stop or pull over if it can? Does it turn over control to the driver? What if there is no driver?
What about sabotage? Like with spray paint or a sticker? Don't underestimate the malicious nature of other humans.
My main concern is that the car MUST be able to cope with sudden camera disability while moving or Tesla will be responsible for SOMEBODY getting killed.

Tesla cameras are not self cleaning. If the cameras gets dirty or obstructed, you get a warning on the screen. The driver is expected to take over.

 

[Microterf]

Tesla cameras are not self cleaning. If the cameras gets dirty or obstructed, you get a warning on the screen. The driver is expected to take over.

Watching some of the FSD beta tests covering the cameras, it does a great job of keeping engaged and working well. Obviously if you cover all the cameras, you are screwed. But because of the overlap, it works well.

 

[diplomat33]

Watching some of the FSD beta tests covering the cameras, it does a great job of keeping engaged and working well. Obviously if you cover all the cameras, you are screwed. But because of the overlap, it works well.

It is possible that since FSD Beta uses the surround video rewrite that it solved a lot of those issues since one camera can cover for another one.

I don't have FSD Beta so I can't comment on my personal experience with FSD Beta. I can only comment on my experience with the currently deployed AP. In Winter when it rains more or snows, I get a lot of issues with AP warning me about camera visibility.

 

[rxlawdude]

I can only comment on my experience with the currently deployed AP. In Winter when it rains more or snows, I get a lot of issues with AP warning me about camera visibility.

You admit you know nothing of what you speak, yet you speak.

This is why you simply should stop your BS speculations about why FSD won't work, while praising and explaining away all the Waymo favors.

 

[diplomat33]

You admit you know nothing of what you speak, yet you speak.

This is why you simply should stop your BS speculations about why FSD won't work, while praising and explaining away all the Waymo favors.

WOW! Somebody got triggered. Chill out!

I shared my experience with AP in rain and snow. Am I not allowed to share my experiences with AP, good and bad?

I am not spreading BS speculation. I share what I know about autonomous driving from expert sources that I read. If you don't like it, tough!

 

[rxlawdude]

WOW! Somebody got triggered. Chill out!

I shared my experience with AP in rain and snow. Am I not allowed to share my experiences with AP, good and bad?

I am not spreading BS speculation. I share what I know about autonomous driving from expert sources that I read. If you don't like it, tough!

Triggered is a bit strong. More annoyed. You love Waymo, you hate Elon Musk. You consistently bash (without facts but plenty of speculation) Tesla's FSD development. We get it. But you are blind when it's you who gets triggered when Waymo is rightly criticized.

 

[diplomat33]

Triggered is a bit strong. More annoyed. You love Waymo, you hate Elon Musk. You consistently bash (without facts but plenty of speculation) Tesla's FSD development. We get it. But you are blind when it's you who gets triggered when Waymo is rightly criticized.

Yes, I like Waymo but I don't hate Elon. I applaud Elon for a lot like SpaceX, making great electric cars like my Model 3 which is my favorite car I've ever owned, solar etc... I just don't act like Elon walks on water. I sometimes express my concerns when I disagree with Elon.

I don't think I constantly bash Tesla's FSD without facts, based on just speculation. I've actually held my tongue on a lot. And I try to have good reasons when I criticize FSD.

And I don't think I get triggered when Waymo is rightly criticized. I have no problem with people making fair criticism of Waymo. I've even expressed some criticism of Waymo from time to time. I only get super triggered when people spread lies about Waymo.