How about timeouts for constantly disruptive folks?

[BoerumHill]

I'm a back room member at another site. We call it Area 51.

"The first rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: You do not talk about Fight Club."

I kid, I kid. Actually it's just a private, invitation only subforum for 30 of us who supported the site & research efforts when it was a Civil War listserv. We have an annual Muster in November and spend a weekend together in Gettysburg. We invite new members infrequently.

(ASIDE - Our Off Topic forum there is called Lunatic Fringe.)

Like TMC it's a relatively friendly place. Unlike here, there is zero tolerance for rude behavior. If you get out of line, you're gone. No warning points, no moderated threads, no temporary bans. Find another URL.

We have very spirited discussions. Folks will argue back and forth for months on a specific point (i.e., "did Lee's scout really make it all the way to Little Round Top on the morning of Day Two?".) Regardless of how vociferous people make their point, it is never vitriolic. We have a number of authors and professional historians on that board but the amateur archivist or anyone with innate curiosity is accorded the same level of courtesy & respect.

That's a very small community (<10K members) and its intertwined with meetup events & tours. The dynamic is quite different when the person you're replying to in a thread is either someone you're acquainted with or likely to run across at some point in the future.

Pretty big tent here at TMC, and it's about to grow exponentially. A subset makes it to TMC Connect but that's a very small percentage of the general population of TMC.

Anyway, I think in general the folks who administer the TMC community are sensible & have good instincts. It's easy to criticize. Chances are running this place is far more complicated and nuanced than you realize.

I know as an executive I make scores of decisions every month that alter & shape the direction of the company or affect the lives of the people working there. If we're doing our job effectively, 99% of the people working there are blissfully unaware of what went into the process of making a decision. They see the end result, seamlessly adapt to the new policy or procedure, and go back to executing without a second thought of what just happened.

 

[Auzie]

My suspicion is that things will continue along the same track, proportional to the number of vehicles Tesla delivers with each passing month.

In other words, it's going to get 2x worse with Model X, as Tesla transitions from run rates of ~50k units/year to ~100k units/year, and possibly an entire order of magnitude worse with Model 3 and 500k units/year.

With growing sales and recognition will come hoards of new members in the market for a Model 3, and many more new investors as TSLA becomes a less risky investment. Anticipation of Model 3, possible delays, and inevitable miscommunication from Tesla is going to cause friction here on the forums. If service centers and Supercharger stations become overwhelmed, that will add a lot more drama. Also, where there's lots of money at stake, tempers will run high. If, as Elon predicted, TSLA is on its way to a market cap at AAPL level (600-700B USD), people buying in NOW still have the potential for an insane 20-bagger ROI. Swings in share price, shenanigans from the media, and accusations of "shorts" trolling the forum are going put people on edge.

tldr; Apocalypse: A mass influx of new membership from Model 3 and investors will make the forum unmanageable.

The only solution I think really comes down to today's membership collectively deciding to turn down the heat in order to preserve the generally polite culture here. If most new members observe that the forum is a decent place, I believe they will adopt that cultural norm. The alternative is to accept that TMC will become a much rougher "town", and be prepared to fight all the time. I'd prefer the former, but if people want to fight, so be it. I won't start a fight, but I sure won't back down if someone wants to pick one.

My experience is that Tesla Motors Club (TMC) is quite a civil place, abundant with interesting knowledgeable folks willing to engage in informative witty discussions. I find it priceless to have access to such a group.

Most heated and controversial threads seem to be related to Tesla Motors (TM) customers disputes / issues. It seems that TMC serves as a de facto TM customers complaints handler / amplifier. TMC seems to bear the brunt of unhappy customers.

TM poor communication leads to misunderstandings, incorrectly set expectations and eroded trust with some customers. Unhappy customers that fail to resolve the issue with TM come to TMC to vent their frustrations.

My view is that moderating the latest outbursts was necessary to preserve civility. In the long term, it is always a better solution to address the root cause rather than deal with the consequences.

The way TM communicates seems to be reactive. A response is given after the attack, from a position of defense/explain. That seems to be a lose - lose strategy. I hope that changes into proactive approach before M3 masses come on board. I can just imagine a scenario when there are half a million customers seeking information about their beloved car, TM struggles to respond and the poorly informed masses start firing cannons aimed at Tesla and all that angst spills onto TMC.

Most of the communication failures seem to be due to customers not understanding new ev technology and product features. Informing and educating customers about the technology and the product is the crux of the Business - to - Customers communications. It is a process, not an event. Customers want to learn and to be informed about the product. Most businesses deal with these issues by developing comprehensive technology / product educational packages. I am confident that Tesla folks will get on top of that.

Failing that, TM staff will forever struggle to answer the never-ending queries and questions, and TMC might have to deal with snippy people venting their frustration.

 

[CHG-ON]

Awesome analogy.

I think the mods do the best they can under the circumstances. I also agree it's only going to get worse.

Here's my analogy: When I first joined, it was a small town that had struck gold. Originally, the gold claim was small (Roadsters) and practically everyone was helpful and considerate. The old gold claim was recently exhausted but I came not for the old claim, but a new one just discovered over a hill close by (Model S). I was surrounded at that time by many old timers, and really enjoyed it here and learned a lot from them about panning for gold. It was always hoped the new gold claim would be big, but it turned out to be huge. As such, the small friendly town grew rapidly and with that rapid growth came growing pains. Crimes that were once rare or non-existent became commonplace and now there were fights at the local beer parlor almost nightly. The jail that in the past was only used infrequently (snippiness thread) had to be expanded to make room for more offenders. And those who tried to protect the old town's heritage, and in particular it cherished town square icon, were called "fanboys".

That's about where we are now so I don't know how the story ends but I guess we're going to find out.

 

[scottf200]

It seems moderators should just close threads at some point when they truly run their course. Same handful of people just repeating the same thing over and over. Keeps showing up on the updated thread list. Another good reason to be able to hide entire threads.

Example 60+ pages: Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

 

[Andyw2100]

It seems moderators should just close threads at some point when they truly run their course. Same handful of people just repeating the same thing over and over. Keeps showing up on the updated thread list. Another good reason to be able to hide entire threads.

Example 60+ pages: Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

If moderators use the discretion that they have to close threads, I don't think they should close threads involving very contentious issues that involve a large number of members here. So far, and I'm happy to say for the good of the forum, it would appear that the mods agree.

 

[Auzie]

My personal feedback on the dead horse thread is that it seems to degenerate fast into insanity as someone in the thread mentioned and into quite damaging libellous statements. I fail to see how such destructive discussion benefits anyone, apart from people trying to trumpet their cause, whatever their cause is.

On one side of that discussion, there are people with education, experience and knowledge on the matter, on the other side of the discussion there are people who claim being misled and not being able to understand Tesla's statements.

I find it almost painful to read as the gap between the experts and the other side does not look bridgeable, most likely because the discussion is not about being informed any more. My impression is that the discussion is more likely about trying to save public face and to publicly hurt Tesla.

 

[Doug_G]

It seems moderators should just close threads at some point when they truly run their course.

That doesn't really work. Closing threads usually just results in new threads being spawned.

 

[scottf200]

That doesn't really work. Closing threads usually just results in new threads being spawned.

Simple warn them about this and then let them know they will go in a time out.

At some point the threads serve no purpose. Often just a banter back and forth between 2-4 individuals stating the same thing over and over.

 

[Andyw2100]

On one side of that discussion, there are people with education, experience and knowledge on the matter, on the other side of the discussion there are people who claim being misled and not being able to understand Tesla's statements.

Do you have any idea how condescending that statement is towards everyone on my side of the discussion? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that was not your intention.

I find it almost painful to read...

Then don't read it. Problem solved.

 

[ohmman]

Worth mentioning here that I've never been active at another forum. Ever. I've lurked in a number of tech forums (and USENET!) over the last 15 years, posting on rare occasions. It was the community at TMC that allowed me to let my guard down and start posting. I was impressed with the apparent overall intelligence of the community, and the civility of the participants.

Things have certainly turned a bit, and it's a shame if it can't be reeled in. I don't have any quick or easy solutions to recommend; though the "private" or "confirmed owner" section might be somehow worthwhile with the trade-off that it's alienating. And also, there are fabulous contributors here that aren't owners.

I'm happy to keep my posts civil; I try that already and will double my efforts.

 

[doug]

People that keep repeating themselves get warned and/or get their accounts limited.

 

[scottf200]

People that keep repeating themselves get warned and/or get their accounts limited.

Here's my confusion. Do you think after 60 pages in the example thread they (2-4 people) are talking about something new?

 

[brianman]

Here's my confusion. Do you think after 60 pages in the example thread they (2-4 people) are talking about something new?

If you're putting this concern in the category of "disruption", I think we use the word disruption differently.

 

[AudubonB]

As with the case of whether you're a sourdough or cheechako in Alaska, whether someone is an old-timer or a newbie in this forum depends almost entirely whether that person joined before or after you did; almost all of the the rest of the equation is a function of how often that individual has posted.

Based on my experience with other forums, I also have expressed the desire for an "Insiders"/"Old-Timers"/"Responsible Folks" sub-forum, all of which are, I think many will agree, various platitudes for exclusivity. And although there are a good many arguments for same, the drawback is that without new blood and new perspectives and new ideas that only new members can provide, a forum - ANY forum - eventually will wither and become unproductive.

Yes, there are an irritating number of members who are a net negative to this forum. I fervently hope I am not one of them - not in anyone's eyes. I do heartily wish each member, prior to hitting the "send" button, asks himself or herself this question: "Am what I am about to present going to be a productive contribution to this particular discussion or is it not?"

Now, about those two Tesla owners who walked into a bar.....

 

[bonnie]

That doesn't really work. Closing threads usually just results in new threads being spawned.

Not to mention the inevitable cries of 'Censorship! Freedom of speech is being oppressed!'. Which is always amusing to me, since the person doing the crying 1) agreed to the TOS, 2) as a result is well aware that this is a private forum, and (my fav) 3) is complaining about censorship on the very site where they claim they are being censored. Which, if they WERE being censored, would be censored. But it's not. So the very fact they're claiming censorship kind of takes their air out of their puffy balloon.

 

[Auzie]

Then don't read it. Problem solved.

As an investor in Tesla, I scan all public information related to Tesla. That thread contains relevant public information for investors.

Do you have any idea how condescending that statement is towards everyone on my side of the discussion? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that was not your intention.

People's credentials in terms of qualifications, work or other experience or exposure to particular subjects are relevant information when highly technical matters are being discussed, imho. Such information provides readers like me the opportunity to evaluate how the contributor informed themselves on the matter. Did they get informed by obtaining a degree, working in a related industry, reading up on the subject, having extensive experience in racing cars, or are they just making a guess.

In a court of law, expert witnesses are asked to state their credentials as that is material information.

Posters do not state their credentials, but more often than not they are apparent. Not having credentials in a particular topic/discussion is factual, not a judgement. I personally do not have relevant credentials for some discussions but still participate in them.

My sincere apologies if that came across as condescending to anyone.

 

[Andyw2100]

As an investor in Tesla, I scan all public information related to Tesla. That thread contains relevant public information for me and other investors.




People's credentials in terms of qualifications, work or other experience or exposure to particular subjects are relevant information when highly technical matters are being discussed, imho. Such information provides readers like me the opportunity to evaluate how the poster informed themselves on the matter. Did they get informed by obtaining a degree, working in a related industry, reading up on the subject, having extensive experience in racing cars, or are they just making a guess.

Posters do not state their credentials, but more often than not they are apparent. Not having credentials in a particular discussion is factual, and I personally do not have relevant credentials but still participate in many discussions on this forum, including the dead horse one.

My sincere apologies if that came across as condescending to anyone.

In that thread, I've fully acknowledged that I do not have the technical knowledge to discuss the specifics with first-hand knowledge. But I trust those that do, like sorka and wk057. Other very well respected members here--some of the people who I believe you are referring to as the people with experience racing cars--don't question those guys' abilities to evaluate the data. They may disagree with them about the principles, but it's not based on a lack of knowledge or experience on the parts of the "experts" on our side of it. The knowledgeable, experienced people on both sides just disagree over various aspects of the issue.

I've limited my discussions to repeating the technical arguments made by those I trust, and talking about the ethics, logical aspects of things, etc. Also I think I am able to provide the perspective of a tech-savvy buyer who came to Tesla for the tech, and without sports car experience. I think a lot of people like me are attracted to Tesla. So in some sense, as this issue impacts people like us, I'm more qualified to address those aspects of the discussion than the car experts, because the car experts, again on both sides, know too much.

 

[scottf200]

If you're putting this concern in the category of "disruption", I think we use the word disruption differently.

Same thread same people discussing the same thing for days on end. Showing up at the top part of the "What's New" search.
Again, Do you think after 60 pages in the example thread they (2-4 people) are talking about something new?

 

[Canuck]

View attachment 97113

Great cartoon and quite appropriate. The first frame is wrong though. The government can, in fact, arrest you for what you say. The classic example is you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theatre (unless there is, in fact, a fire). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that even free speech has its limits, as do all rights. Hopefully before posting here, people will think about what they post and if it is offensive or rude not post it (said by the person who more than once has been moved to snippiness - but hey, you can smoke and still tell people smoking is bad -- it doesn't make the message any less correct.)

 

[brianman]

Same thread same people discussing the same thing for days on end. Showing up at the top part of the "What's New" search.
Again, Do you think after 60 pages in the example thread they (2-4 people) are talking about something new?

Doesn't matter if they are or aren't. I don't consider it disruptive.

If you don't want to see what people are posting, you probably shouldn't be using "What's New". If you don't want people to post because you're not interested, don't read the thread. If you don't want them to post because you think you have a high ground about what they're talking about being interesting or useful, I think you overvalue your opinion.