HOV lane bug still in V12

[Padelford]

I've discovered that the old HOV bug in FSD still exists in V12, and it's actually nastier than in V11. The problem arises when the vehicle is in FSD on a freeway, a route has been mapped involving a right lane exit, and the vehicle is moving in an HOV lane on the left with a single-white-line separating the HOV lane from the leftmost regular freeway lane.

In V11, the vehicle running FSD in the HOV lane would blithely cruise right by the exit needed to continue the planned route, no turn signal and no attempt to change lanes, and Nav would come up with a new right-side exit & route to compensate. The vehicle would also ignore that exit while it remained in the HOV lane.

In V12, the vehicle seems to go into a conflict between what the route demands and what FSD will allow. The vehicle in the HOV lane will turn on its right turn signal as if to change lanes a mile before the exit, but will not leave the HOV lane. The vehicle slows down by 10-15 MPH. But when it starts to pass the exit, the vehicle slows way down to 40 MPH or less, and this with busy traffic behind doing 60-70 MPH. I took over at that point, sped up and cancelled FSD.

This seems to be a very reproducible problem. I observed it now three times on I-5. In one of the situations, the vehicle had its turn signal on and was slowing down about 1/4 mile from the exit, when there was a break in the white line lane boundary, probably due to some accident that scraped off the paint from the pavement. The vehicle immediately left the HOV lane thru the "hole" in the HOV lane boundary, but it was then too late to make three more lane changes & exit as planned.

 

[phxazcraig]

I've had HOV issues in Phoenix all along (2023 MYP). Since I'm still running 11.4.9 on the highway, I'm not expecting things to be different. But I did send three disengagement reports about it yesterday in the hope of spurring some action there. I have 'Use HOV Lane' enabled.

 

[Padelford]

I had HOV lane engaged as well in the V12 episodes. The rationale for not leaving the HOV lane should depend upon whether the white line boundary is a double white line, which means leaving the HOV lane is illegal, or a single white line, which is legal to cross.

 

[cwerdna]

I had HOV lane engaged as well in the V12 episodes. The rationale for not leaving the HOV lane should depend upon whether the white line boundary is a double white line, which means leaving the HOV lane is illegal, or a single white line, which is legal to cross.

Also, in some places the section where you can't leave nor enter HOV lanes is denoted by double yellow lines.

HOV and HOT Lane Information
"HOV Lane Striping:
Do not cross solid, double lines whether they are white or yellow! If you are entering or exiting an HOV lane, you must change lanes only where there is a designated area or where you are crossing a single dashed line (white). In all cases, you must change lanes safely. For details, see the California Vehicle Code, Sections 21655.8 and 21460."

I took a look at a section of the 405 freeway in So Cal and one can see the double yellow lines at at Google Maps and Google Maps.

 

[phxazcraig]

I had HOV lane engaged as well in the V12 episodes. The rationale for not leaving the HOV lane should depend upon whether the white line boundary is a double white line, which means leaving the HOV lane is illegal, or a single white line, which is legal to cross.

Maybe where you live, but not in Phoenix. Most of the HOV lanes inside the city (all?) have a wide white separating line. Some places have double (solid) white lines. I have issues crossing both. AZ doesn't have the restricted entry/exit areas for getting in or out of an HOV lane. Anywhere, anytime.

 

[azred]

I've had HOV issues in Phoenix all along (2023 MYP). Since I'm still running 11.4.9 on the highway, I'm not expecting things to be different. But I did send three disengagement reports about it yesterday in the hope of spurring some action there. I have 'Use HOV Lane' enabled.

HOV lanes have lots of different rules in various states and CA and AZ are vastly different. I suspect Tesla’s focus has always been on CA, which when I lived there had strictly defined carpool entry and exit points. Arizona of course only has a defined entry and exit at the two points the carpool lanes begin and end. At all other points one can legally cross the solid white line anywhere to enter or exit the carpool lane but FSD v12 and prior Betas won’t.

My memory is my two cars used to cross the solid line but if so it probably would have been pre-FSD Beta, either under the basic autopilot on one car or EAP on the other. I now have FSD v12 on both cars and neither one will enter or exit the carpool lane on FSD v12 (or before under the two years of FSD Beta).

It is hard to even discuss this issue here because I don’t think many Californians — possibly including the Tesla FSD staff located in Fremont — realize the CA rules are so different. And I don’t believe the double white line rule in WA applies to AZ in the rare locations like I10 in Chandler where they exist. (I did find an AZ Republic discussion on the rare double white lines situation and the AZ cop who answered said it was ok to cross.)

P.S. If you think lack of universal inter-state rules for carpool lanes is puzzling FSD v12 imagine the confusion around school zones. I’m not sure cities/towns within a single state are consistent on those rules/signage, much less among the 50 states. It’s great to train our cars with clips but those clips need to be location-specific. It doesn’t do much good to train my metro Phoenix car for carpool lanes and school zones using Los Angeles stripes, signs and rules. And the school zones in Phoenix may well have different school zones signs and markings than in Tempe.

 

[Padelford]

The double-line HOV boundary presents a big challenge to FSD & the Nav database. There are some HOV lane entry/exit points, and either the Nav database has to contain them for route planning OR FSD needs to start reading freeway signs.

 

[JulienW]

I've discovered that the old HOV bug in FSD still exists in V12, and it's actually nastier than in V11......

V12 does NOT work on highways. It switches back to the V11 stack. Release Notes tells you what V12 does.

 

[Padelford]

V12 does NOT work on highways. It switches back to the V11 stack. Release Notes tells you what V12 does.

View attachment 1038667

In my opinion, 12.3.4 isn’t behaving on the highway like 11.4.9. There are some new behaviors present, like moving out of the right lane at a busy on-ramp and turn signals when the vehicle is making an on-ramp merge, that I never experienced with 11.4.9.

 

[azred]

V12 does NOT work on highways. It switches back to the V11 stack. Release Notes tells you what V12 does.

View attachment 1038667

Yes, thanks for the reminder. Perhaps we will need this thread when end-to-end NN of city streets is extended everywhere - unless the video clip training is very localized. You can see from this short thread the very different rules for carpool lanes depending on location. For example, if a solid white next to the carpool line is in AZ I can freely cross it but if in another state it may be a “do not cross” barrier.

 

[phxazcraig]

Yes, thanks for the reminder. Perhaps we will need this thread when end-to-end NN of city streets is extended everywhere - unless the video clip training is very localized. You can see from this short thread the very different rules for carpool lanes depending on location. For example, if a solid white next to the carpool line is in AZ I can freely cross it but if in another state it may be a “do not cross” barrier.

This is the type of thing for which I think we will eventually need national standards. Fonts, font sizes, colors, and shapes of signs are (I think) already standardized.

 

[azred]

This is the type of thing for which I think we will eventually need national standards. Fonts, font sizes, colors, and shapes of signs are (I think) already standardized.

Yes, it’s probably needed for self-driving, but I would guess there is about a zero percent chance of it ever happening. Just the cost alone of standardizing would be enormous and state legislatures are never anxious to cede anything to the federal government. In the meantime, the clips that my car needs to copy must be localized. While carpool lanes may have state standards, school zone markings/standards differ by municipality or even school district within some states.

 

[Padelford]

V12 does NOT work on highways. It switches back to the V11 stack. Release Notes tells you what V12 does.

View attachment 1038667

I spoke to a Tesla representative on the phone Monday, and she told me categorically that V12 does not use V11 as a highway stack. Highway or city, it’s all V12.

 

[dramsey]

In my opinion, 12.3.4 isn’t behaving on the highway like 11.4.9. There are some new behaviors present, like moving out of the right lane at a busy on-ramp and turn signals when the vehicle is making an on-ramp merge, that I never experienced with 11.4.9.

This has been my experience as well; I've notice subtle but definite behavior changes on highway driving. Of course this could just mean they upgraded the highway stack as well.

Then again, I'm kinda confused by this talk of separate highway and off-highway stacks. I thought we'd moved to "single stack" some time ago.

 

[JB47394]

Then again, I'm kinda confused by this talk of separate highway and off-highway stacks. I thought we'd moved to "single stack" some time ago.

There was a single set of software for both highways and secondary roads in V11. But when they came out with V12, they introduced a neural network control system for secondary roads. It's great on secondary roads, but it doesn't handle highway driving (yet), so the highway driving and the secondary road driving are back to using different pieces of software.

Software is very malleable stuff, and engineers will regularly rewrite software after they develop enough experience with the problem space, and have spent some time experimenting with solutions. The cumulative experience educates them, and allows them to concoct newer, better solutions. Driving autonomy is a very advanced problem, and there's a lot of learning yet to be done.

 

[Padelford]

There was a single set of software for both highways and secondary roads in V11. But when they came out with V12, they introduced a neural network control system for secondary roads. It's great on secondary roads, but it doesn't handle highway driving (yet), so the highway driving and the secondary road driving are back to using different pieces of software.

Software is very malleable stuff, and engineers will regularly rewrite software after they develop enough experience with the problem space, and have spent some time experimenting with solutions. The cumulative experience educates them, and allows them to concoct newer, better solutions. Driving autonomy is a very advanced problem, and there's a lot of learning yet to be done.

See my comment above. Tesla says it’s V12, city and highway.

 

[JulienW]

I spoke to a Tesla representative on the phone Monday, and she told me categorically that V12 does not use V11 as a highway stack. Highway or city, it’s all V12.

That is incorrect info. You can even verify yourself. Set Speed to Auto and when you get on the Interstate it will switch to MAX speed since the V11 stack doesn't support Auto speed. Also the tentacle will change (it is longer in V11) and if you pass orange cones/barrels they will also still render on V11 but don't on V12.

 

[JB47394]

See my comment above. Tesla says it’s V12, city and highway.

Yep, the software version is V12, but the software itself is still believed to be the stuff that was part of the V11 product. It behaves pretty much identically, and there's a clear change of behavior in the visualization between secondary roads and highways. Also, the visualization used on all roads is clearly taken from V11.

 

[uscbucsfan]

I spoke to a Tesla representative on the phone Monday, and she told me categorically that V12 does not use V11 as a highway stack. Highway or city, it’s all V12.

How did you speak with someone in the FSD department? SC, sales, support, techs, etc. know little to nothing about FSD. It's always been the case.

V12 is only on city streets. It's in the release notes, Omar has detailed it, Elon has quoted tweets about it, etc.

Plus as mentioned before, it's pretty obvious when the stack switches. That doesn't mean the highway stack isn't updated, but it's not E2E.

 

[Padelford]

How did you speak with someone in the FSD department? SC, sales, support, techs, etc. know little to nothing about FSD. It's always been the case.

V12 is only on city streets. It's in the release notes, Omar has detailed it, Elon has quoted tweets about it, etc.

Plus as mentioned before, it's pretty obvious when the stack switches. That doesn't mean the highway stack isn't updated, but it's not E2E.

It was a vehicle support representative on the 800 national support line. The highway "stack" currently has significantly different behaviors from 11.4.9.