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Hoping to join the club

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There is a spectacular cartoon by Gary Larson (Far Side), "All Right, Rusty's In The Club"

I'm hoping at some point to join the club too.

I am a long-time EV enthusiast, I was even going to convert an old Plymouth TC3 to electric, but unfortunately the car burned! Talk about an event, even though the car was parked next to a fuel pump the gas station attendant wouldn't let me use their fire extinguisher. So I pushed the car away from the pump, whereupon the fire really got going, even shorting the starter to pump fuel to the fully engulfed engine compartment. The smoke was pouring across the entire four-lane street, and when the fire department guys got there they snapped the hood up and had the fire out in a minute.

So decades later, on 3/31/2012, I purchased a new 2011 Nissan LEAF. A spectacular car, a terrible buying experience. Everything was worked out, but when I went there the finance guy said the interest rate for the lease was "just a number" and even though I have spectacular credit I'd be paying the high interest rate. So I said sure, then immediately refinanced at the low rate through the credit union, and bought the car. At one Nissan dealer, they said they'd want $500 to do what is essentially an hour of paperwork, I said sure, just to see what they'd do, and he said, "Well, we're kind of busy, you'll have to come back tomorrow." Of course, you could have heard a cricket chirping at the dealership, they were just too lazy. So I did find a great dealership that did the paperwork as a courtesy, so of course I went there all the time with the car.

I've always been somewhat unhappy with the 3.3kw charging the initial models had. Then, on the "Prius Technical Stuff" group, I read of Bob Wilson deciding on a new Tesla Model 3. Bob Wilson has been a long-standing expert for the Prius, which at one time we had a 2004, 2005, and 2006. So I wouldn't feel too bad trying to follow in his footsteps.

I had always understood that Teslas were out of the range for my budget, but now the used market is potentially within budget. I did look at the Model 3, but IMHO there is no comparison to the Model S. The Model 3 is probably on the cutting edge of technology, but the Model S is close to the stratosphere in looks. I keep thinking it must be spectacular to go more than 50 miles without starting to look for a place to charge. (At one time, my Nissan LEAF had lost 7 of 12 capacity bars, and was down to a 26 mile range. I did get the batteries replaced under warranty from Nissan.)
 
Leaf and Model 3 owner here. The 3 or S and the SC network is a whole other world compared to the Leaf! Hope you can join the club soon. I keep the Leaf around as my beater for crowded parking lot duty and as a backup car. I do like the Leaf hatch for Sam's Club runs and it has better ingress/egress than a sedan.
 
Welcome! I understand and have some of your same experiences. I still own 2 Leafs and a Model S. Tesla should help you get rid of your reliance of a gas car. There is a world of difference between the range constraint of your Leaf to a coast to coast driver in the Tesla. It is such a relief to have a reliable charging network also. Hope you get your Tesla soon!
 
There are pros and cons, so here are my list of positives [in order of importance to me] for both after a year driving my 2018 S100D.

Model 3 pros:
1. Flawless record of non-combustion, whether spontaneously or due to collision [design differences: battery pack is not a load-bearing element of chassis, reducing stress during crash, and is internally padded with intumescent goo].
2. Mechanical door-handles which can be grasped from the outside by first-responders in case of emergency leaving 12v battery dead.
3. Suspension control-arms which do not spontaneously snap apart while driving.
4. Forward drive half-shafts which do not shudder under sharp acceleration after 15,000 miles of gentle driving.
5. Front suspension which does not rattle over low-speed bumps.
6. No steering alignment/uneven tire wear issues due to adjustable air suspension.
7. Supercharging to 250kW max on LR and faster recharging in MPH in any case.
8. Better driving visibility from cabin (MS A-pillar be dayumm thicc).
9. Easier to manoeuvre and park.
10. More efficient motors produce less heat, thus no power-fade with hard driving.
11. Lower weight & Cd gives better handling and overall fuel efficiency.
12. Overall lower TCO, particularly if keeping it outside warranty, when MS repair bills clamber due to higher price of spares and more frequent failures, e.g. auto-presenting door-handles @$1000 a pop.
13. Half the purchase price.
14. Liquid-cooled AP computer should be more durable, also making for cooler and quieter cabin.
15. Tesla may add official towing option.

Model S pros:
1. FUSC (if buying used), which may be worth it if doing high-mileage.
2. Great hatchback space.
3. Less liable to rusting due to all-Alu-bodywork.
4. Better sound insulation and general comfort.
5. Instrument cluster/MCU layout better for driver.
6. Classic looks [though personally I think the M3 is also a beauty].
7. Possibility of up to 22kW AC charging.
8. No trickle of water into trunk when opening it in pouring rain.

Obviously I plumped for the MS myself [before M3 EU-availability and with FUSC] and your use case will differ, so I just want you to be fully informed before making a decision you may have to live with for some considerable time.

In short, I would recommend you draw up your own prioritised lists for each then at least test drive the Model 3 for a weekend (from a friend or Turo) to see if you can get the feel for it, before pulling the trigger. Good luck either way!
 
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Some more occurred:

M3 pro:
16. Shorter emergency stopping distance.

MS pro:
9. Dedicated 6kW battery heater works better in winter.
10. Better controls on/near steering.
13. With air-mattress can double as a fairly decent camper.
 
Thanks so much for the replies, and OPRCE's in depth analysis too!

I didn't know there was a 6kw battery heater, doubtful that'll be needed here in Florida though. Is it impossible to tap into those 6kw for driving?

I find it interesting too that LEAF owners are coming over to Teslas, instead of getting the longer-range new LEAF. I thought the LEAF has gotten to be expensive for what it ultimately is, a basic EV for commuting. Long ago we were thrilled with the Prius, then Toyota just squandered their technological lead, I always wondered about the focus on hydrogen. Nissan has seemed to still be focused on improving, but Tesla had the spectacular styling from the very beginning.

Hopefully I won't ask too many newbie questions, I am trying to do diligent research but there is a lot to learn.
 
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Thanks so much for the replies, and OPRCE's in depth analysis too!

I didn't know there was a 6kw battery heater, doubtful that'll be needed here in Florida though. Is it impossible to tap into those 6kw for driving?

I find it interesting too that LEAF owners are coming over to Teslas, instead of getting the longer-range new LEAF. I thought the LEAF has gotten to be expensive for what it ultimately is, a basic EV for commuting. Long ago we were thrilled with the Prius, then Toyota just squandered their technological lead, I always wondered about the focus on hydrogen. Nissan has seemed to still be focused on improving, but Tesla had the spectacular styling from the very beginning.

Hopefully I won't ask too many newbie questions, I am trying to do diligent research but there is a lot to learn.
Leaf has a poor traction battery design (no TMS) which leads to a short life, bad depreciation, and slow charging. They so far have refused to install liquid cooling for their battery. They also fall shorter on their rated range than any other, so freeway driving speed is a range destroyer for the Leaf. For most people to replace their gas car, Tesla is really the only choice for out of town driving because of charging infrastructure, charging speed, and efficiency. Leaf can suffice for second car but will be not worth anything in the car market after a few years. Some are referring to them as disposable cars...
 
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Leaf has a poor traction battery design (no TMS) ... so freeway driving speed is a range destroyer for the Leaf.

Back when I had a 26 mile range with the LEAF, even old ladies were mad, as anything over 40 mph was a "range destroyer" at that point!

I have found it interesting though that Tesla chose to have so many little batteries to combine into a pack, I've always been of the opinion the fewer batteries in the pack the better.
 
Back when I had a 26 mile range with the LEAF, even old ladies were mad, as anything over 40 mph was a "range destroyer" at that point!

I have found it interesting though that Tesla chose to have so many little batteries to combine into a pack, I've always been of the opinion the fewer batteries in the pack the better.
The way Tesla pack is designed, a cell that goes bad gets bypassed so it doesn't drag the whole pack down.
 
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The way Tesla pack is designed, a cell that goes bad gets bypassed so it doesn't drag the whole pack down.

The design with many smaller cells/pack also allows more coolant-vane contact area with the cells, hence the ability to quickly extract excess heat for faster charging, to wit up to 200/250kW on new MS LR/M3 LR, although granted 150kW from v2 suC will probably remain the most common for the next 5 years until all hopefully switch over to v3.

I didn't know there was a 6kw battery heater, doubtful that'll be needed here in Florida though. Is it impossible to tap into those 6kw for driving?

In MS if it never turns on in FL then it is just dead weight which draws no power, so I suppose one could say those kWs remain available for max acceleration, though it may be hard to notice the difference amongst several hundred others. On the M3 the battery-heating works by "wasting" power in the inverter circuits without moving the motors, but again in FL you may never need this to happen, so it also remains available.

And don't worry about asking any questions you like, am happy to answer whatever I can.
 
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Here's a considerable contra for M3, unless you never have rear-seat passengers, which I did once know but had forgotten:

"The Tesla Model 3 does not have a mechanical latch for rear passengers at all. Tesla says front passengers are meant to use the physical latch on their doors to get out, then to open the door from the outside for the rear occupants in the event of a power loss. This design doesn't break any rules or regulations, the IIHS told us.

With incapacitated passengers in the front seat and a loss of power, the lack of a mechanical release could trap otherwise capable passengers, though. The IIHS doesn't particularly cotton to this setup. "Maybe it's not, from a safety standpoint, the best thing. Certainly we would want people to be able to get out of the vehicle in an emergency," Young says. "Having a mechanical release would certainly be something we would support from a safety standpoint.""

After fiery Tesla crash, a closer look at how door locks work in emergencies

On MS, for loss of power situations, there is a wire-pull rear door release mechanism [because no mechanical connection in rear door internal handles] hidden behind the carpet just under the centre of the rear seat bank. The front door internal handles OTOH are mechanically linked to the door locking mechanism. It's a weird dichotomy so unfamiliar passengers/drivers need to be instructed about this.

All of this reminds me to finally get those window-hammers installed and teach the children how to use them!
 
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And don't worry about asking any questions you like, am happy to answer whatever I can.

Thanks so much OPRCE! I appreciate those who help, I tried to do the same long, long ago in the Prius forums.

I have come up with a couple more newbie questions.

With a LEAF, you can tell with LEAFSpy the actual condition of the battery. It seems people here just go by miles reported at full charge, but won't somebody who drives fast have different calculated miles than somebody driving like an old lady? That is the way it is with the LEAF. With a Model 85, is it just the reported range divided by X (and I'm not sure what number X would be)?

Also, I asked in another thread but either the question was too basic for the discussion there or my question was overlooked, but is it possible to "downgrade" the battery of a Model 85 and put in a salvage Model 60 battery? Maybe I'm paranoid coming from the Nissan LEAF, but it still would open up more possibilities if that time ever happens.

Thanks.
 
Thanks so much OPRCE! I appreciate those who help, I tried to do the same long, long ago in the Prius forums.

I have come up with a couple more newbie questions.

With a LEAF, you can tell with LEAFSpy the actual condition of the battery. It seems people here just go by miles reported at full charge, but won't somebody who drives fast have different calculated miles than somebody driving like an old lady? That is the way it is with the LEAF. With a Model 85, is it just the reported range divided by X (and I'm not sure what number X would be)?

Also, I asked in another thread but either the question was too basic for the discussion there or my question was overlooked, but is it possible to "downgrade" the battery of a Model 85 and put in a salvage Model 60 battery? Maybe I'm paranoid coming from the Nissan LEAF, but it still would open up more possibilities if that time ever happens.

Thanks.

1. There are several LEAFSpy-equivalent ways to dig into diagnostics of the Tesla battery, via hard- / software.

2. Using hardware, i.e. OBD-II to BT / WiFi dongle:
TM-Spy (iOS only, data logging) -- Link
Scan My Tesla (Android only, better data granularity) -- Link

3. Using software App via API with Tesla account login:
Tesla Stats (one-off App purchase)
TeslaFi (subscription with free trial, web interface only, no App)
TezLab (subscription, no data export)

4. Of the software types, there's a useful comparative review here -- Link
Summary: Tesla Stats is recommended, for around $15

5. AFAICT Tesla rated range available = EPA * SoC * SoH, thus not taking typical or varying driving styles into account, and in my experience it works out on the generous side, not apt to suddenly leave one stranded. Hence not a cause for worry in my book.

6. If one has access to the car for a prolonged test-drive, you can work out the actual battery degradation by charging to 100% then driving to ~5%, then reading how many kWh were actually consumed on the trip. Do this with aircon at constant 90kmh on highway at your average yearly ambient temperature to get a typical real range (a.k.a. Bjørn Nyland method -- Link ).

7. Replacing the battery with a different capacity is in principle possible, at least for hacker types. What Tesla will support with future software updates/under warranty is surely more limited but also likely to vary over time, probably worth talking to them directly on this. My own attitude is to just drive away for the 8 years of battery warranty and see what options are available then (e.g. battery chemistries should hopefully be improved and/or the replacement pack cost much less than presently). Even if you are buying a 4-year old Model S with maybe 10% degradation, that should not really preclude getting another 6 years use out of it.

8. I don't know much about the S85 specifically but have fleeting recollection of its reputation as a good battery, though you may want to double check this.

Hope this helps!
 
1. Even if you are buying a 4-year old Model S with maybe 10% degradation, that should not really preclude getting another 6 years use out of it.

8. I don't know much about the S85 specifically but have fleeting recollection of its reputation as a good battery, though you may want to double check this.

Hope this helps!

I've seen some Teslas where the battery has been replaced under warranty. What are the parameters for that? With the LEAF it was fairly straightforward, although Nissan was, in my opinion and several others too, able to distort those parameters by changing the software.

I am really hoping to join the club, but have a few more questions.

How important is it to have AP1? All things being equal, one car having AP1 and one car not, how much added value is there for it? It seems like if you do much highway long-distance driving it might be nice, but then too, I don't know how much driving I'd be willing to turn over to it.

All things being equal, how much added value is there for a car that is a year newer? I guess a model year could theoretically be two days, or almost two years.

Is there any place that explains everything about the different Tesla seats? I've researched, and seen the one video that explained a bit, but I've not seen anything where all the different colors and different materials and different styles were able to be compared. Is there a huge value on the "Premium Seating" vs. regular seating?

Thanks for the help.
 
I've seen some Teslas where the battery has been replaced under warranty. What are the parameters for that? With the LEAF it was fairly straightforward, although Nissan was, in my opinion and several others too, able to distort those parameters by changing the software.

I am really hoping to join the club, but have a few more questions.

How important is it to have AP1? All things being equal, one car having AP1 and one car not, how much added value is there for it? It seems like if you do much highway long-distance driving it might be nice, but then too, I don't know how much driving I'd be willing to turn over to it.

All things being equal, how much added value is there for a car that is a year newer? I guess a model year could theoretically be two days, or almost two years.

Is there any place that explains everything about the different Tesla seats? I've researched, and seen the one video that explained a bit, but I've not seen anything where all the different colors and different materials and different styles were able to be compared. Is there a huge value on the "Premium Seating" vs. regular seating?

Thanks for the help.

1. The MS battery and drivetrain is guaranteed for 8 years, with unlimited mileage and no minimal SoH percentage specified.

For comparison, Nissan LEAF battery is guaranteed for 5 years or 60,000 miles to min 70% SoH, and when it falls below that they will only recondition the battery back up to just over the 70%, to barely cover their escape from the warranty period, not replace it with a new one, which is pretty cheap IMHO.

Tesla OTOH has a good reputation for generally being more than obliging towards its customers and there are numerous examples of people taking a problem with a 60kWh battery to the SeC and coming out with a new 75kWh replacement, no questions asked. This phenomenon is undoubtedly aided by the fact that Tesla prefers to streamline operations rather than keep producing spares for cars no longer in production.
I've never had a battery problem but AFAICT they will replace or repair the battery if a fault can be detected, such as a cell/module has gone bad. What can be considered normal degradation varies over time and presumably chemistry changes but those who graph the data seem to agree that the Tesla battery has outstanding longevity (good for ~300..500k miles, with larger capacities probably tending to do better) compared to the offerings of competitor OEMs.

2. I'd definitely recommend an extended test-drive for Autopilot of any stripe: visit a Tesla showroom and finagle an AP1 loaner for 6 hours or better yet a weekend (for comparison with a new car you may want to indicate you are interested in) or snag one from a friend/neighbour/local club member. By coincidence I just had my first experience with AP1 yesterday, on a SeC loaner, and was surprised to discover that for use on the highway it is actually smoother than the latest software on AP2.5, though on crests it has a tendency to occasionally lose its bearings and simply wander off course without warning. In mountainous Switzerland this is something of a problem but in Florida I imagine it would be quite tolerable.
For me AP is very important and I await being retrofitted to HW3 soon, for FSD.

3. Re. model years: I would prioritise a later-built battery pack, for lowered susceptibility to spontaneous combustion, but otherwise cannot offer much advise as I bought new in mid 2018.

4. Re. seats: older cars may have genuine leather seats, even perforated for ventilation, which is the best option. Have never experienced Tesla fabric seats but can attest that the vegan leather tends to sweat in summer.

5. Let us know in outline your use case and what you are thinking of buying and [myself or] others here may be able to advise on whether it seems a good deal.
 
A bit more research, and another newbie question.

How important is the AP? I know people like it, and I've researched and seen where it has prevented accidents, so paying a bit more for one would then be worth it if one day it prevents a crash.

But is AP1 good enough? Is AP2 just light-years ahead of AP1? I know AP2 is much more sophisticated. I found the information from TeslaTap Autopilot, Processors and Hardware – MCU & HW Demystified | TeslaTap which was very informative and greatly appreciated.

The problem is the time-line, as AP2 requires a much newer 2016 version, as opposed to a 2014 or possibly even 2013 that would be OK.

I'll be interested to hear the opinions. Thanks.