Having Second Thoughts

[dsm363]

Seriously though, there's a few threads discussing relatively trivial features (map-reading lights, lit vanity mirrors etc). Regardless of our opinions, most of us are not target-market. We've already signed up and bought the t-shirt (literally, in my case). Target-market are the next 30,000 orders, and many of those (as I was) will be looking for a nice car in the 'premium sedan' segment, regardless of whether it's ICE or EV. Elon's goal was always to design a car people want, the EV bit was just a happy bonus. As I've said elsewhere, my (now) wife bought her last car (before we met ), a Dodge Caliber, based on it having heated seats and a rear-wiper, whereas the Honda the lease company showed her did not. My point is, these trivial (to many of us) items can make or break a sale, and that's something that Tesla need to be more cognizant of. I suspect that if you did a line-by-line feature check of the Model S, with a similarly priced A6, 5 Series, E Class and something from Lexus, the Model S would look very under-specified. We know that's not necessarily reality, or a fair comparison, but those are exactly the comparisons that will be made.

I agree. Tesla needs to address these more minor features (minor in the sense they are not major engineering components like powertrain or control systems...etc) to capture the next 10,000 and beyond customers.

 

[brianman]

It's going to look a little weird to get e-mails "Interior Upgrade Package" offered to Sig holders in a few months (years?), with the description (paraphrased) "Now we're as good as we should have been when you bought it."

Sadly, it reminds me of Vista vs. Win7.

 

[ckessel]

Many see a difference between "premium" and "luxury".

I guess. I have no idea what the difference means or who'd be in which niche. I'd never heard of "premium" sedan before Tesla's marketing.

 

[dsm363]

It's going to look a little weird to get e-mails "Interior Upgrade Package" offered to Sig holders in a few months (years?), with the description (paraphrased) "Now we're as good as we should have been when you bought it."

Sadly, it reminds me of Vista vs. Win7.

I agree. While it does suck if it comes to that at least it will be an option (if they do this). For some reason, the normal connivence features got overlooked and they are attempting to correct the problem but am not sure they can by production. I'd rather the few things of most concern like center console, cup holders and vanity mirror are options even if they cost more. This is not ideal and shouldn't happen but may be where we are. This is something that should be easily fixable (which is a good thing) and Tesla can incorporate them into future versions of the Model S and of course the Model X.

 

[kevincwelch]

I primarily drive just for the fun of it since I work from home.

I'm open to this -- I really am. Now I have a reason to get out there and drive while not thinking about all the gas I am using or the polluting I am doing.

Just saying: sometimes the small things mean a whole lot. :smile:

 

[dsm363]

I took a look at the crash ratings and out of the 2012 and 2013 cars rated (I only looked at BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Volvo) I only found the Volvo S60 to meet 5 stars in all categories. A few had 5 stars in most categories then the others were not rated for some reason or were 4 stars. The don't have Tesla on their yet but I hope they keep their 5 star rating in every category.

 

[brianman]

@dsm - Camaro as well, IIRC.

 

[onlinespending]

Good post Smorgasbord. You point out some real deficiencies with the existing Model S interior without giving Tesla a lot of heat for it. Those are all valid points and something many people even on this forum (which is mostly composed of ardent Tesla supports who have been waiting as long as 3 years for this car) have raised issue with. So it's clear Tesla needs to address these things to win over more than just the early adopter die-hards. I have no doubt that they will, and for that reason I am heavily leaning towards delaying my purchase until late 2013.

 

[strider]

Second point. Gas ain't cheap, and its likely that Model S will save you upwards of $2,500/year in energy expenses. Whatever that number is for you, that's money out the door, regardless of whether you get hit for a big repair bill.

Be careful with this. The battery will need to be replaced at some point so much of this savings will go towards a new battery. Assuming a $12k battery it will take 5 years (at current gas prices) to pay for that. At this point we simply don't know how long these batteries will last but based on Roadster owner experiences 5 years is a safe number. As Roadsters age if the batteries keep performing then that truly is money in the bank. Also if gas prices go up and electricity goes up less then that also helps the math. But I wouldn't count gas savings as found money.

 

[richkae]

Trying to get back to the original purpose of the post - what to wait for and how long:

1) Steering wheel: The diameter, nice thick rim, heated, and with all the convenience buttons and stalks just right.
- I bet Tesla adds a heated steering wheel, possibly as early as 2013. This seems like it would be a popular option in Norway and northern europe. Will it be possible to retrofit to a 2012? You would have to plumb a connection in the dash. Not easy, but doable.
2) Seats: 16-way comfort seats. We especially love the way the shoulder support angle is adjustable separately from the lower back angle.
- I bet the seats don't change any time soon.
3) Steering feel. The BMW servotronic is effortless yet gives you great feel for the road at all speeds.

4) Driver Storage: Door pockets. Center console storage tray and under armrest storage.
- I think Tesla will revise the interior for 2013 or 2014. The drop in opportunity console will fix some of this. Replacing the current fixed console with the 2013 part might be possible. This could also be remedied with custom work. Door pockets would be nice and could be easily added to 2013 models, I wonder what replacing a 2012 door skin with a 2013 one would run.
5) Park Distance Sensors.

6) True panoramic sunroof with no bars obscuring it. Power integrated sunshade.
- I doubt the panoramic roof changes at all in the next couple of years.
7) Tow hitch.
- Aftermarket.
8) Drink holders in the back. Heated seats in the back. Door pockets in the back. Back of front seat pockets. Foldable arm rest in the middle of the back.
- Same as #4. They could improve this a lot in 2013. No idea if heated seats or foldable arm rest is on their radar - even if they are adding them to a 2012 would be prohibitive.
9) Headroom in the back (our son is 6'3")
- Once the headliner is minimal thickness, this will not change.
10) Tilt down right hand side mirror when in reverse (does Model S have this?)
- If it does not have already, this is an easy software upgrade.
11) Visibility out the back window.
- Will not change.
12) Vanity mirror light for passenger.
- Trivial fix, even aftermarket.
13) Luxury: Burl wood, leather covered seat backs. Black headliner.
- No idea if this will change. Seems unlikely in 2013, maybe later.
14) Ability to run a 110 volt inverter to power a portable printer or drink cooler.

15) 4 wheel drive. Handy during heavy rain storms. We don't travel to snow areas much, so this isn't that big a deal for us. We have done Tahoe trips in the past, so it's certainly a nice to have.
- This will possibly be available on 2014 models - about the same time as the Model X.

 

[ckessel]

Be careful with this. The battery will need to be replaced at some point so much of this savings will go towards a new battery.

Plus, EVs prices are at a premium today compared to ICE cars (if it weren't, we wouldn't be talking about accepting any non-powertrain compromises for the sake of an EV). Thus, it could be argued the gas savings is what's helping bring the EV back to competitive costs.

 

[Norbert]

If Elon wants to make the best EV out there, he has. If he wants to make the best car out there, he hasn't.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I think that's a reasonable personal opinion, but very much disagree with the "straightforward" part. Obviously, it isn't "better" than a pick-up truck, Bugatti Veyron, or Rolls Royce.

The Model S now places more emphasis on things like cornering, absence of body roll, acceleration, optional air suspension, quality of electric power train, and so on.

It has achieved those strengths in a development time so short that many considered it impossible. Developing an interior of some level may require its own time and resources, and is not as crucial to proving the viability of electric cars as a technology. Elon acknowledged this concern by pointing out that the interior engineering group has been "beefed up". However that doesn't mean that Tesla ought to be condemned if the Model S doesn't have all those interior features which one or the other person may consider crucial. It still has many advantages over a 5-series, and may still be the "better" car for many, even without the electric/gasoline difference in environmental/oil consumption terms.

(BTW, I always think it looks funny when people look up in the vanity mirror. It looks much better when they use a pocket mirror (if that's what they are called). Plus the dome light, if that works.)

(Another BTW: Model S does have #10, AFAIK.)

 

[strider]

Plus, EVs prices are at a premium today compared to ICE cars (if it weren't, we wouldn't be talking about accepting any non-powertrain compromises for the sake of an EV). Thus, it could be argued the gas savings is what's helping bring the EV back to competitive costs.

Mechanically that isn't true. Model S performs as well as its similarly priced BMW 5-series equivalent except for top speed which doesn't matter in the real world. MSP is just as fast as an M5 and costs the same. Same goes as you move down the performance line. Yes, there needs to be more luxury improvements which must come over time to achieve true parity (and hopefully at the same price point) but that's all you're sacrificing at this point.

 

[strider]

(BTW, I always think it looks funny when people look up in the vanity mirror. It looks much better when they use a pocket mirror (if that's what they are called). Plus the dome light, if that works.)

Yeah, everyone I know just uses their phone camera for this nowadays

 

[ckessel]

Mechanically that isn't true. Model S performs as well as its similarly priced BMW 5-series equivalent except for top speed which doesn't matter in the real world. MSP is just as fast as an M5 and costs the same. Same goes as you move down the performance line. Yes, there needs to be more luxury improvements which must come over time to achieve true parity (and hopefully at the same price point) but that's all you're sacrificing at this point.

Uh, yea, I thought that was exactly what I said with the bit about "non-powertrain compromises".

 

[dennis]

To put things in perspective look at Fisker. Some would argue a beautifully designed interior with the materials, pockets and design but issues with powertrain and user interface issues as well. Tesla seems to have the opposite problem with a so far well designed powertrain and 17" screen but so so on the interior. Ideally Tesla would have nailed everything the first time around but for many they didn't. Shooting for perfection and delivering it are two separate things. I fully expect the more minor issues like interior design can be fixed much more easily than a poorly designed powertrain or car's user interface/nav screen.

I'm sure I'll get flamed but I felt compelled to step in here. I've owned a Fisker Karma since January and have driven it 5000 miles. The powertrain has been rock solid for me and most Karma owners. Any early issues were quickly addressed under warranty, with great service from the dealer network.

There may be Tesla Model S failures. The anti-EV community will step in and exaggerate them as they have done to Fisker. It is important that the pro-EV community not jump on that bandwagon just because you may view it as a competing brand (which it isn't!).

You are right that the UI and Nav are sub-standard, but they work. And as they say, it is only a small matter of programming to improve that, since it is software. The interior, on the other hand, is beautiful and functional, and includes map and vanity mirror lights. :biggrin:

 

[Andrew Wolfe]

Trying to get back to the original purpose of the post - what to wait for and how long:

1) Steering wheel: The diameter, nice thick rim, heated, and with all the convenience buttons and stalks just right.
- I bet Tesla adds a heated steering wheel, possibly as early as 2013. This seems like it would be a popular option in Norway and northern europe. Will it be possible to retrofit to a 2012? You would have to plumb a connection in the dash. Not easy, but doable.
.

Heated steering wheels are electric and under 20W. No big deal to add one.

 

[NigelM]

I'm sure I'll get flamed but I felt compelled to step in here. I've owned a Fisker Karma since January and have driven it 5000 miles......

A great compliment to Tesla that you're still signed up for a Sig Performance.

 

[dennis]

A great compliment to Tesla that you're still signed up for a Sig Performance.

Yes, Sig Performance will be my wife's daily driver, replacing a Lexus RX400h. Karma is my daily driver.

These are the 7th and 8th cars that we have owned where we made deposits before the car was released (or in some cases announced!). I'm well aware of the issues associated with being an early adopter. Interestingly, the Karma has been more reliable than my E39 M5 (camshaft failure at 1300 miles) and E60 M5 (VANOS oil pump failure and numerous SMG faults).

We're looking forward to the Model S experience, but have our eyes wide open.

 

[dsm363]

I'm sure I'll get flamed but I felt compelled to step in here. I've owned a Fisker Karma since January and have driven it 5000 miles. The powertrain has been rock solid for me and most Karma owners. Any early issues were quickly addressed under warranty, with great service from the dealer network.

There may be Tesla Model S failures. The anti-EV community will step in and exaggerate them as they have done to Fisker. It is important that the pro-EV community not jump on that bandwagon just because you may view it as a competing brand (which it isn't!).

You are right that the UI and Nav are sub-standard, but they work. And as they say, it is only a small matter of programming to improve that, since it is software. The interior, on the other hand, is beautiful and functional, and includes map and vanity mirror lights. :biggrin:

Glad to have your input, thanks. No one will flame you for stating your experiences or thoughts with your car. Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash the Karma just used it to compare since there were at least a few issues (Consumer Reports car one of them) but as you said they are working them out which is great. It is a beautiful car and it seems like the interior is great too from the pictures I've seen and from what you and others have said.

If you compare the price of the Karma vs. the Model S performance they are similar but I'd imagine the battery costs are less than half for the Karma vs. the Model S Performance. I don't know what the margins are on both cars but it likely leaves a lot more money in the Karma to throw at the interior quality. This doesn't explain away lack of cup holders or vanity mirror light (if that's confirmed) though.

Yes, Sig Performance will be my wife's daily driver, replacing a Lexus RX400h. Karma is my daily driver.

We're looking forward to the Model S experience, but have our eyes wide open.

My parents are replacing a RX400h as well with a Signature Model S too. Excellent advice too. This is definitely a riskier purchase than a time tested Mercedes but I think the risk is worth it obviously and a lot more fun.