Gun control

[HankLloydRight]

And yet you knowingly drive a car.

Your car is more likely to kill my family that your guns are. You know this, but you drive a car anyways.

It's a crazy world.

Ok then --- so let's talk about what's required to buy, title, register, and as well as train, test, and grant operator licenses for cars versus guns.

Also your argument is a red herring. Is death by car four to five times higher in the US compared to these other countries?

 

[McRat]

Ok then --- so let's talk about what's required to buy, title, register, and as well as train, test, and grant operator licenses for cars versus guns.

Also your argument is a red herring. Is death by car four to five times higher in the US compared to these other countries?

There is very little training or testing required to operate a car in our state. I know because I just trained 2 drivers. Obviously I had to train them correctly, not train them to mandated minimums which are useless for survival.

When you bring a portable phone into the car with you, and you intend to use it, I see that like you firing a gun with a blindfold on.

How many people die in Holland is not really a big concern for us since we don't live in Holland. They eat more herring than we do.

 

[NewTMSMan]

And yet you knowingly drive a car.

Your car is more likely to kill my family that your guns are. You know this, but you drive a car anyways.

It's a crazy world.

EDIT - To tie it in, when you drive with bad driving habits such as speeding or lack of attention to your surroundings it is basically murder. Not in the US, but in some other countries. In the US we believe in the concept of 'accidents' when they are really no accident, instead they are a predictable outcome of a behavior.
If you climb into a car with a cellphone knowing you will use that phone, it's premeditated since you are aware that cellphones kill when driving.
If you worry that firearms are going to kill you, you simply do not understand your actual surroundings.

Completely false analogy on many points including intent as well as designed use. Please post your statistics for intended homicide by vehicle that exceeds that by firearms and I will engage in this fallacy then.

 

[McRat]

Which other rights shall we surrender?

Religion? OK, we still have some freedom there, but it is tightly controlled today.
Speech? It depends on what your politics are and where you want to speak.
Assembly? Set by the community standards.
Armed citizens? Pretty sure Ruby Ridge settled that one. Government assassins are OK. Self-defense is not.
Quartering of soldiers? The Feds own much of the western US, but nearly zip of the eastern states. Military bases are mostly a western thing.
Search and seizure? Spying on Americans is now a right we surrendered. Having the government take our property without a trial is a daily occurrence.
Self-incrimination? The odd case of the false confession and the black boxes in cars has wilted that one. We do have double jeopardy since we have multiple levels of laws. If they can't convict you of a state law, they will just file federal charges. Eminent domain is a joke. As is property seizure without restitution.
...
And the Tenth. This is the most widely abused amendment. States are subservient in all aspects to the Federal Government today.

 

[McRat]

Completely false analogy on many points including intent as well as designed use. Please post your statistics for intended homicide by vehicle that exceeds that by firearms and I will engage in this fallacy then.

Would you say that if you ignore the road, you could kill somebody in your car?

Would you deliberately plan to ignore the road? ie - bring a cellphone into your car for use while driving?

 

[McRat]

Completely false analogy on many points including intent as well as designed use. Please post your statistics for intended homicide by vehicle that exceeds that by firearms and I will engage in this fallacy then.

With over 100,000 miles of 2 wheeling under my belt, I can say without a doubt that a portion of car drivers want to injure or kill bicyclists and motorcyclists. I've never been shot at deliberately, but I certainly have been attacked by a car driver dozens of times.

Cars make people feel more powerful than guns do. I can't spot a gun owner by their actions in public. I can spot hateful sociopaths when they are behind the wheel though.

 

[HankLloydRight]

There is very little training or testing required to operate a car in our state.

Fine, but you still have to title and register every car, as well as take a government run test to obtain a license to operate. You put mush words around it "very little testing"... but at least there *IS* some training and testing required to get a license.

Also, when random, completely non-cited statistics copied from the internet start of with such a gross mathematical error, I pretty much have to call into question everything else.

U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925%

This is wrong by a factor of 10,000. "Do the math."

 

[NewTMSMan]

With over 100,000 miles of 2 wheeling under my belt, I can say without a doubt that a portion of car drivers want to injure or kill bicyclists and motorcyclists. I've never been shot at deliberately, but I certainly have been attacked by a car driver dozens of times.

Cars make people feel more powerful than guns do. I can't spot a gun owner by their actions in public. I can spot hateful sociopaths when they are behind the wheel though.

Yeah well, your personal impressions are not statistical data, particularly when it comes to a personal evaluation of intent.

Since you seem to have some magical super powers, being able to spot "hateful sociopaths" you should probably contact the FBI directly and offer your services instead of just posting on a car forum about it

 

[HankLloydRight]

Since you seem to have some magical super powers, being able to spot "hateful sociopaths" you should probably contact the FBI directly and offer your services instead of just posting on a car forum about it

 

[kort677]

Just how old is the text the OP copied and pasted here? Hint: Obama isn't president anymore.

regardless of the date of original publication, can you find fault with the data offered?

 

[kort677]

Nothing to stop some jerk from buying a gun outside of the city and then driving into the city to commit a crime.

I should also be able to go to a concert in any city and not be shot by some jerk in a hotel half a mile away.

there is nothing to stop some jerk from driving a truck right through the venue either, see bastille day nice france, sadly we live in very violent times. taking away the rights of millions because of the acts of one, really? I suppose using your logic france should have severely restricted the use of motor vehicles after Nice.


here is an article about the LV incident and crowd security from a law enforcement/security perspective
Las Vegas shooting scenario a security nightmare | Daily Mail Online

 

[HankLloydRight]

regardless of the date of original publication, can you find fault with the data offered?

Yes. First sentence.

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925%

The rest of it is un-cited "statistics".

You know the line popularized by Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

 

[Swift]

there is nothing to stop some jerk from driving a truck right through the venue either, see bastille day nice france, sadly we live in very violent times. taking away the rights of millions because of the acts of one, really? I suppose using your logic france should have severely restricted the use of motor vehicles after Nice.

Also, with the concern now about silencers and how their potential use in a tragedy like this would make it far worse, the government should follow Kane’s logic and restrict the sale of Teslas too.

Back to laws, I do think they can be better as it relates to background checks and training requirements. There are some easy wins out there...

 

[kort677]

With the concern now about silencers and how their potential use in a tragedy like this would make it far worse, we should especially restrict the sale of Teslas...

I'm curious, and this question really isn't aimed at you but have any of you ever shot with a "silencer" or is the base of your knowledge derived from movies and TV shows?
I have used a (correct term) noise suppressor and while using it certainly reduces the level of the report of a shot it is not silent at all.

 

[Skotty]

There's a certain irony to rabidly defending the right to bear arms to defend against government while also criticizing those protesting government injustices and supporting the first ever leadership that attacks the country's own democratic norms.

I believe in the right to bare arms, but I also acknowledge their are issues that could use addressing. The gun lobbies push for more than they should rightly push for and help cause a lot of the backlash against guns. They give the impression of supporting anarchy instead of responsible gun ownership.

 

[Swift]

I'm curious, and this question really isn't aimed at you but have any of you ever shot with a "silencer" or is the base of your knowledge derived from movies and TV shows?
I have used a (correct term) noise suppressor and while using it certainly reduces the level of the report of a shot it is not silent at all.

Yes I have and in this tragedy there would be little benefit to the shooter given the weapons used and the supersonic velocity of the rounds.

 

[kort677]

Yes I have and in this tragedy there would be little benefit to the shooter given the weapons used and the supersonic velocity of the rounds.

supersonic velocity? do you think that supersonic velocities are unique to the weapons used here? if I am not mistaken the actual calibers of the weapons haven't been officially reported but an educated guess based on released photos the weapons used were chambered to use .223/.556 rounds. here is data for you to use to compare velocities of various calibers and bullet types.
https://press.hornady.com/assets/pcthumbs/tmp/1410994454-2017-Standard-Ballistics-Chart.pdf

 

[yeti]

The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs.

That was a time when the government did not possess big data surveillance, WMDs, billion dollar aircrafts or drones. You really think arming ourselves helps today for this case? It's like bringing a drawing of a knife to a gun fight or something absurd like that. Also, all this talk of anarchy bothers me when "we" are the government and have the power to elect or run for office!

 

[kort677]

That was a time when the government did not possess big data surveillance, WMDs, billion dollar aircrafts or drones. You really think arming ourselves helps today for this case? It's like bringing a drawing of a knife to a gun fight or something absurd like that. Also, all this talk of anarchy bothers me when "we" are the government and have the power to elect or run for office!

"we" are the government?
yes I agree that you or anyone else do have the ability to get involved however that is not reality, how many people even vote let alone stand for office?
regardless of labels, dem/rep. the government at the highest levels are in the control of interests that are quite removed from the interests of the "common man".

arming ourselves on a micro level does indeed serve a purpose. other than the fact that the aforementioned powers that be need to be concerned about an armed populace, have weapons enhances personal security on a day to day basis. I know some ill informed anti gunner will come back with some nonsense regarding how dangerous is could be to have a gun in the home, in untrained hands, and so on and some of those concerns might be valid but the reality is that weapons in the hands of law abiding people are used quite often to thwart criminal acts.

 

[kort677]

There's a certain irony to rabidly defending the right to bear arms to defend against government while also criticizing those protesting government injustices and supporting the first ever leadership that attacks the country's own democratic norms.

I believe in the right to bare arms, but I also acknowledge their are issues that could use addressing. The gun lobbies push for more than they should rightly push for and help cause a lot of the backlash against guns. They give the impression of supporting anarchy instead of responsible gun ownership.

this isn't true at all. you appear to be parroting the words of the anti gunners. the NRA does not advocate anarchy in fact they sponsor the majority of gun safety program available to anyone.
here are some real facts if you are willing to learn
Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths