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Graphene Polymer Battery 497 Mile Range

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...many are just slick advertising bordering on being con artists, with most just looking for fast money from investors to burn on things other than actual battery technology, I can understand your position.

Everyone knows what you're saying to be the case already.

I realize it's a bit of arguing over nothing at this point, but your harsh skepticism actually proves the point that new tech gets torn apart here. It's cool if that's your perspective, just call a spade a spade.
 
Everyone knows what you're saying to be the case already.

I realize it's a bit of arguing over nothing at this point, but your harsh skepticism actually proves the point that new tech gets torn apart here. It's cool if that's your perspective, just call a spade a spade.
I say 99.9% of announced battery innovations deserve that criticism. They usually provide hyped up figures (like charging in "minutes" or some kind of range or percentage improvement claim with no Wh/kg numbers). It gets tiring to read about them all the time, so after a while the default mode is to dismiss them.

However, our perspective is not that important, what matters is what Tesla does. AFAIK Tesla has a team that keeps up with battery innovations and can evaluate any sample cells companies chose to send their way.
 
Here's an idea... How about finding a way to manufacture these carbon nanotubes out of the CO2 & CH4 greenhouse gases in the atmosphere? If they don't make good batteries, at least this could alleviate runaway climate change.
 
Here's an idea... How about finding a way to manufacture these carbon nanotubes out of the CO2 & CH4 greenhouse gases in the atmosphere? If they don't make good batteries, at least this could alleviate runaway climate change.
That's like an idea I saw where some company turns Co2 into plastic. The environmental benefits are very limited though and more expensive ( most likely ), especially since Tesla isn't profitable this isn't the best idea.
 
Everyone knows what you're saying to be the case already.

I realize it's a bit of arguing over nothing at this point, but your harsh skepticism actually proves the point that new tech gets torn apart here. It's cool if that's your perspective, just call a spade a spade.

New technology doesn't get torn apart here. Announcements of breakthrough technologies as though they are imminently depoly-able are torn apart.

Skepticism is entirely appropriate with these types of announcements. Any time you don't meet these announcments with skepticism, you're just leaning towards credulity.
 
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New technology doesn't get torn apart here. Announcements of breakthrough technologies as though they are imminently depoly-able are torn apart.

I understand what you're saying and agree that would be appropriate.

What actually happens here is that people are so pre-dispositioned to dissaproval (see all the 'don't send a ppt' comments) that any announcement of technology gets torn apart as if it was regarding immediately deployable technology.

In other words, people jump to the conclusion of: new tech = sheisters = must post something negative. It's semantics whether the intent of the post is to tear apart the actual technology or the company or the people doing the research or the announcement itself, because they're one in the same.
 
In other words, people jump to the conclusion of: new tech = sheisters = must post something negative. It's semantics whether the intent of the post is to tear apart the actual technology or the company or the people doing the research or the announcement itself, because they're one in the same.

It's not that people think they are sheisters. The media pumps up the information as if it is relevant. It is usually an interesting development, not a practical development, and definitely not something that will be implemented and useful anytime soon. So most of us develop a "show me, don't tell me" attitude towards these kind of announcements.
 
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Here's an idea... How about finding a way to manufacture these carbon nanotubes out of the CO2 & CH4 greenhouse gases in the atmosphere? If they don't make good batteries, at least this could alleviate runaway climate change.

There isn't enough CO2 in the atmosphere and every man made method of separating the carbon from the oxygen is very energy intensive. This is one case where nature has all human methods beat cold. CH4 is even less common in the atmosphere.

CO2 is approximately 0.04% of the atmosphere, CH4 is around 0.00018%. By comparison argon is 0.93% and water vapor is about 0.25% though it isn't distributed evenly.

There are far cheaper ways of getting carbon for making nanotubes or anything else out of carbon. Carbon makes more compounds than any other atom, so there are many substances to choose from and some are pretty much pure carbon to start with like graphite ore.

As for battery technologies. A major advancement provable in the lab tomorrow is going to take about 10 years to get to a point of mass production. Any new battery needs to be thoroughly tested to make what its qualities are, then if it looks promising, it needs stress testing to see if it really is better than current technologies. After it looks like a winner, the industrial engineers take it and start working out the best manufacturing method. Once a manufacturing method is worked out, factories need to be built or existing factories modified to build them, then workers need to be trained in the new technique. Once production begins, there are always teething troubles that need to be worked out before mass production can begin. A new technology will usually also be fantastically expensive at first, so it will only be used in specialized applications with one off or limited production products until production volumes and manufacturing problems get worked out.

A tweak to an existing production product can shorten this down to 2 years or so, but it always takes a while to get a new technology into production. When Tesla introduced the silicon enhanced batteries in the 90KWh battery pack, they had probably been working on them for a couple of years at that point and they probably are finalizing the next battery tech tweak now.

Battery technology is showing itself to be a lot like art, 99% of it is junk, 1% is pretty good (a nudge in the right direction), and 0.01% is brilliant. Li-Ion batteries have had a lot of nudges in chemistry over the last 20 years, but the last major break through (completely new chemistry) in rechargeable battery technology was in the 1990s. There is a lot more effort going into major new advancements, but it's a lot of trial and error and nobody has proven to hit the jackpot yet. There have been a lot of announcements, but nobody has brought forth proof. There is so much attention being paid to this right now, I expect the next major battery tech breakthrough with proof is going to be a major news story. The rest are just people trying to get attention like the many Chinese entrepreneurs who have announced new EV cars only to disappear off the radar in a week.
 
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I learnt my lesson from Envia Systems.

A few years ago I was talking to my brother who is a PhD (in a branch of Organic Chemistry) and was explaining all about Envia and how they are going to kill the ICE industry. He rolled his eyes had a big smirk on his face and I didn't understand why then. Now I know why.
 
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wdolson is correct IMHO. The only point I'd add is that the ancient adage, often ascribed to Thomas Edison that "genius is 1% inspiration and 99% hard work". In energy storage, like almost everything else it is thus. So, despite formidable odds against any given innovation ending out successful, it is almost always worth testing the hypothesis that such ideas might be real advances. In a large part of materials advances these days, nano-technology plays a major role. Graphene is no exception, nor is the silicon-doping that is allegedly a crucial feature in the 90 kWh Tesla battery packs.

I will be entirely unsurprised if we see a rapid increase in effective battery storage density coupled with reduced costs, perhaps led by Tesla. I also will be unsurprised if we see increased much faster than the 7-8% p.a. that JB has spoken about.
The rapid growth of wind and solar power plus EV's has quickly made scale sufficient to support huge research, and that is what the 99% is all about. We probably do not need many really bright ideas so much as we need cleve engineering to make the bright ideas work in practice.
 
For me, anyway, the value of my PhD research was to accentuate how hard it is to actually do anything new. It's really easy to think up something that seems clever. My own 45 years of effort in new product development yielded about 90% failures, but oh! the 10% had a handful of gems! I never had the perseverance to be great, but I know a couple of people who do.

Is that not why we have Tesla's? After all Elon, JB and company routinely have done the impossible. Now we're at the point that we can criticise them for generic manufacturing and support problems; while they continue to deliver new magic in production!!
 
For me, anyway, the value of my PhD research was to accentuate how hard it is to actually do anything new. It's really easy to think up something that seems clever. My own 45 years of effort in new product development yielded about 90% failures, but oh! the 10% had a handful of gems! I never had the perseverance to be great, but I know a couple of people who do.

Is that not why we have Tesla's? After all Elon, JB and company routinely have done the impossible. Now we're at the point that we can criticise them for generic manufacturing and support problems; while they continue to deliver new magic in production!!

Oh so very true. I've been in R&D since 1987 and I've experienced the same thing just trying to engineer new things out of known components. I've contracted since 1994 in several companies. Sometimes projects succeeded well, other times they crashed and burned. One of the biggest failures i was a part of was at Microsoft. They tried to compete in the cordless phone market (landlines), a couple of years before the world went cellular.

A few times something has been completely my creation and it is quite satisfying, but it's a heck of a lot of work! Right now I'm working on a software program I started back in 2010. Last year it looked like I had about 2 years to go before we could retire some old software that was originally written in the late 1980s for Windows 1.0. They are very complex programs and duplicating all the functionality in modern software takes a lot of time. I now have about 3 years of work in front of me because the project has grown.

Knowing what I know about R&D I look at the Model S and am just flat out amazed at what they did. The bugs have been very minor considering what a leap in technology the car was. It's been out there since 2012 and it still had technology nobody has duplicated in cars. It's true that much of the Model S's technology is reapplied from other industries. It's still a lot of work to adapt technology to another industry, especially one that has to fit within a spider's web of regulation and involves very expensive heavy industry. A major mistake for a start up in that industry means out of business. There are few industries with the natural barriers to entry as the auto industry.
 
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...There are few industries with the natural barriers to entry as the auto industry.
Yes! Take only a single thing: Tesla has used over-the-air Firmware updates for the entire fleet worldwide since 2012. No other manufacturer has so far managed to do so despite fortunes being spent to try. BMW cannot even do an over-the-air GPS updates despite massive investment. Ford and others manage to update entertainment systems only. All of them panic over regulatory issues and geographical differences while Tesla has actually been doing it all for years AND delivering features (did I hear auto-steer?) that nobody else has yet launched widely.

What a treat to be able to complain about Tesla weak points! I just tried an i3 for use as a car in Brazil where there are no Tesla's. Every update of anything, including GPS required going to the dealer for an all-day service appointment. That is not even imaginable to me today, and five years ago I had not even heard of such a thing.

How stupid it is to assume disruption, by definition, begins at the bottom and works up. Christensen simply does not understand technological innovation which nearly always begins at the top and works down. Sorry about the rant.

Graphene is quite typical of technological development in that it will certainly be very expensive until production processes find out how to make it cheaply. We'll see them, I'll wager, but I've no clue when.
 
I took a 4 week course on the principals and production of graphene and some of the salient facts to come from the course are that the quality and quantity of graphene produced by these methods is useless for many of the purposes that are purported to be attributed to graphene like its transparency, strength, conductivity. etc. Many theoretical products require a vast quantity of near perfect graphene sheets or tubes and the production methods are capable of producing only a few millimeters of continuous graphene. THis company may have a battery that can do all that it says but I would be very skeptical of its ability to produce large vehicle batteries of any quantity and consistent quality.
 
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I took a 4 week course on the principals and production of graphene and some of the salient facts to come from the course are that the quality and quantity of graphene produced by these methods is useless for many of the purposes that are purported to be attributed to graphene like its transparency, strength, conductivity. etc. Many theoretical products require a vast quantity of near perfect graphene sheets or tubes and the production methods are capable of producing only a few millimeters of continuous graphene. THis company may have a battery that can do all that it says but I would be very skeptical of its ability to produce large vehicle batteries of any quantity and consistent quality.
This post is the clearest yet description of why production engineering is usually more important than one-off science demos. Now, how long will it be before someone finds out how to produce industrial quality pristine graphene at a cheap price?
 
This post is the clearest yet description of why production engineering is usually more important than one-off science demos. Now, how long will it be before someone finds out how to produce industrial quality pristine graphene at a cheap price?

That could be anywhere from any day now to never. Some things are so complex to produce they can never be made cheaply. Li-ion batteries have been around for 25 years and while there have been advances in manufacturing them, they are still more expensive to make than other battery types.

Other things get simpler and simpler to make like integrated circuits. Over the 50 years we've been making those we have gone from a few transistors in the 1960s to around 8 billion today.

People who don't understand how unusual the evolution of integrated circuits have been want to see everything evolve that way. With ICs we got lucky with Physics that allowed Moore's Law to happen. Most things don't evolve that way.

In another thread someone was complaining that Tesla's keep getting more expensive and never get cheaper. Car manufacturing is the opposite of Moore's Law. Everything about it just gets more expensive, not cheaper. There is a lot of electronics in a modern car, but it's a tiny part of the whole product.

Batteries don't follow Moore's Law either. You can expect some price drop as production levels come up and mass market forces come into play as well as some breakthroughs in production techniques as they get into it. However, the price curve is nowhere as steep as Moore's Law and batteries will never get as cheap as ICs.
 
... However, the price curve is nowhere as steep as Moore's Law and batteries will never get as cheap as ICs.
This is the first time I even partly may disagree with you. I'd say something like this: without a major technological breakthrough, not currently imagined, batteries will not become as cost-efficient as are IC's. Moore's Law no longer applies to IC's either now that nano-sizes are impeding further miniaturization.

I am very reluctant to say anything absolute with reference to science or even engineering. New developments seem often to challenge conventional wisdom, and I tend to quote Mark Twain "it's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future".
 
This is the first time I even partly may disagree with you. I'd say something like this: without a major technological breakthrough, not currently imagined, batteries will not become as cost-efficient as are IC's. Moore's Law no longer applies to IC's either now that nano-sizes are impeding further miniaturization.

I am very reluctant to say anything absolute with reference to science or even engineering. New developments seem often to challenge conventional wisdom, and I tend to quote Mark Twain "it's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future".

OK, fair enough, the IC world is nearing the edges of Physics of how densely packed chips can be, but there are a lot of other new ideas on the horizon that may continue the miniaturization for another few generations at least.

Even if there is a major breakthrough in battery density (there was a rumor thread here started by someone who had run into a Tesla battery engineer in a restaurant and was told a 500 KWh battery pack was in the works, though I'm skeptical of that), their development won't follow the development of ICs.

ICs are a very weird market. When a new, complex part is introduced, the initial yields are usually down in the single digit percents. This is one reason why the latest and greatest is always expensive. I've read that for most mass market ICs, a company can start making a profit at 7% yields. They throw away most of the rest. The PhD Physics types go to work trying to figure out why the new chips are failing and send their findings back to R&D. By the time a product is mature, yields can be up well over 90%. (I'm currently working on a test instrument used by the PhD types in their forensic analysis.)

Nothing else can have such high initial failure rates and still be profitable. By the time production of an IC is mature, the profit margins are approaching that of software. In both almost all the effort is put in up front during R&D and production can be very cheap.

I saw a talk given by JB Straubel on YouTube where he made the pint batteries don't follow Moore's Law. I believe most of the cost reductions in batteries comes from economies of scale and other more traditional production improvement methods rather than yields going up like in the IC world.

The Gigafactory promises to push down the cost of Li-ion batteries through a mix of economy of scale and vertical integration of production and physical proximity to the source of raw materials. I think it was Elon Musk who made the observation that the way Li-ion batteries are made today is very inefficient. Parts are sent back and forth (often between countries) before the final product is shipped across the Pacific to Tesla. Elon analyzes everything from the ground up and he saw that one large vertically integrated facility could make batteries 30% cheaper simply because things aren't getting shipped all over the place.

I think it likely that there will be some kind of major technology breakthrough with battery technology that will revolutionize the industry and push the cost per Kwh down dramatically while pushing the Kwh/Kg way up, but nobody is really sure when that is going to happen. It's possible that is has already happened and there hasn't been an announcement because they are still evaluating, or it could be 10 years from now. Nobody knows for sure.

I suspect a major reason the major car companies are dragging their feet getting fully into the EV market is because they are afraid of getting burned by committing to the best technology for today only to discover it's completely obsolete tomorrow.
 
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The Gigafactory promises to push down the cost of Li-ion batteries through a mix of economy of scale and vertical integration of production and physical proximity to the source of raw materials. I think it was Elon Musk who made the observation that the way Li-ion batteries are made today is very inefficient. Parts are sent back and forth (often between countries) before the final product is shipped across the Pacific to Tesla. Elon analyzes everything from the ground up and he saw that one large vertically integrated facility could make batteries 30% cheaper simply because things aren't getting shipped all over the place.

Exactly! This is what I've been arguing to the disbelievers. Batteries, and even Li Ion batteries, are an old technology, but there are aspects of the application itself that will inevitably drive major changes:

1. Their large scale use in vehicles is new. What we have right now are cells that are optimized for computers and household devices, and co-opted for cars. Vehicles are a completely different application - both in the usage pattern and sheer volume. There is an enormous amount of auto industry industrial engineering & optimization to be done in the product design, manufacturing process and supply chain that will bring down the cost & improve energy density. I'm convinced that we haven't even seen the start of this process yet. Tesla has started the process - but 50,000 cars per year is peanuts. Once we get >500,000 per year, we will start to see some serious progress.

2. The sheer scale of the potential market for automotive batteries is unprecedented. We're still at the very early stages of this. Once the wave starts to really build, the amount of intellectual investment in the development of battery chemistry & construction will be enormous. With that amount of effort, we will absolutely see continuous incremental & probably some step improvements. It will not be a doubling in 24 months, but 5-10% per year seems very plausible.

Unless the Koch Bros succeed in killing the industry, within another decade we should have EV packs with 800 km range that sell for < $50 per kwh, and that charge at about double the current rate. And at that point, it's all over but the crying.
 
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