"Getting by" on a 15A outlet?

[SageBrush]

For those on tight budgets or problem houses, my first choice is to dedicate a circuit and change it to a 240V 6-20 or 6-15 receptacle depending on the wiring. That will provide about 3.8 or 2.6 kW into the battery, respectively.

 

[father_of_6]

15A charging only even makes sense in certain circumstances, but pretty much excludes any geographic region that experiences very cold climate during at least part of the year. If you park in a garage, maybe the cold won't be as big of a factor and you'll still get by with 15A.

For most people though, charging at 15A means very little driving, OR managing charging times carefully.

My opinion is... if you buy a Tesla you should make every attempt to install L2 charging. If you're renting your dwelling, maybe it's not worth it (but probably still is).

If you need a major electrical upgrade to install L2 charging, then maybe you have to make due for a bit until you find the right electrician and/or can afford the upgrade... but it's still probably worth it.

 

[derotam]

I started out using 120V 15A but quickly realized in the winter time that it wasn't going to cut it comfortably for my 70 mile total commute each way in the winter time. This is all an individual use case dependent answer though. Work with 120V 15A until you can't any more, but any kind of 240V would definitely be better.

 

[father_of_6]

It does really depend.

I find it amusing that you keep down voting my posts even though we clearly agree. Do you have some vested interest in convincing people that they should not obtain L2 charging?

My switch to EV was fantastic, and that includes the first 6 months where I did not have home charging. I believe that it will be fantastic for everyone driving ICE vehicles right now... but that every one of them should get L2 charging at home. It makes all the difference.

 

[EfficientWatts]

I find it amusing that you keep down voting my posts even though we clearly agree. Do you have some vested interest in convincing people that they should not obtain L2 charging?

My switch to EV was fantastic, and that includes the first 6 months where I did not have home charging. I believe that it will be fantastic for everyone driving ICE vehicles right now... but that every one of them should get L2 charging at home. It makes all the difference.

I seen this pattern of behavior from others like you before, where people were so highly convinced that if you did not have access to L2 charging at home that you must not own a Tesla. Again everything is dependent on your situation, and you even touched on that yourself and almost got it, but then you went off the rails and made all of these assumptions about what people can do with only L1 charging. Let people evaluate their situation, and if they can do it then they can do it. If they can't then they would either have to charge elsewhere or upgrade, or honestly stick with ICE for now. But you, cannot make blanket assumptions as there are too many variables. Let people if they have questions come with their questions instead of instantly gatekeeping EVs.

 

[father_of_6]

I seen this pattern of behavior from others like you before, where people were so highly convinced that if you did not have access to L2 charging at home that you must not own a Tesla. Again everything is dependent on your situation, and you even touched on that yourself and almost got it, but then you went off the rails and made all of these assumptions about what people can do with only L1 charging. Let people evaluate their situation, and if they can do it then they can do it. If they can't then they would either have to charge elsewhere or upgrade, or honestly stick with ICE for now. But you, cannot make blanket assumptions as there are too many variables. Let people if they have questions come with their questions instead of instantly gatekeeping EVs.

LOL. Then we disagree. In my opinion, you're the one "gatekeeping EVs".

You're expecting ICE drivers to switch from 5 minute gas tank fills to "carefully plan your charging on a 120v". This will push people away from EVs. Giving someone a bunch of details and technical info just scares them.

Believe it or not we are still "early adopters"... but the average consumer will be leery and range anxious about switching to EVs. Most ICE drivers I talk to still think that electric vehicles are only good for local driving.

What the average consumer needs to hear is something like "it's just a dryer plug in your garage".

What they DON'T need to hear is something like "you might be able to use a regular plug, how many miles do you drive a day? Just make sure you plug it in every time you get home and don't forget even once... also, in winter you might have problems, what's your average winter temperature? Maybe you need to park inside the garage... remember that short drives will waste a lot more energy preheating your battery... consider keeping your ICE vehicles around just in case".

Anyone who is already comfortable doing their research doesn't need us to tell them that they might be able to get by with 15A, however that information is already stated in this thread and I reiterated it... 15A will work for some people, some, most, or all of the time. For others though, 15A is insufficient.

I stand by my original sentiment - EV owners should get L2 charging if at all possible.

 

[beatle]

I gave 15A charging a chance when I got my first Model S and quickly realized it would not work for me long term. Any time I get back from a longer day of driving, I'm playing catch up which can take days. It's worse on the bigger cars (S/X). I can't imagine being able to survive on L1 charging when I had my Lightning with its 130kwh battery.

It's kind of sad to discard one of the major benefits of an EV in that you always leave with a (mostly) full tank. With L2 charging you can bank on it in all but the most extreme circumstances. If you have no other options, do what you need to do, but otherwise it sounds like you're being a charging martyr by doing it intentionally unless you have a very specific, repeatable use case.

Though L1 may work for some people whose driving demands can manage the long charging stretches, don't forget that prospective first time EV owners may read these posts to learn about what they need to happily own an EV. "Yeah, you'll be fine. It's no big deal." Then the range anxiety sets in when they realize their transportation needs can't swing that much time on the cord.

TL;DR: "Yeah, you almost surely need L2 at home."

 

[SageBrush]

Yeah, you almost surely need L2

Maybe in the same way that people "need" a cookie

My wife and I share one EV. Today I took the car out for a 30 mile errand and returned with 55% SoC, good for about 130 miles of range. My wife is going to take the car later in the day for a 70 mile trip. Is there any reason to charge ? Not really, other than she easily succumbs to range anxiety so she wants the car charged up to the 75% SoC I set for our spring/summer. If we had L1 at home she would not be able to charge the car to her preferred level, and the EV experience would be less than grand for her.

I think it is a given that as EVs go mainstream, people who treat the EV as an appliance are going to want safety buffers around them in the form of big batteries, fast home charging, and widespread L3 charging to mitigate their basic grasp of the car.

As for talking with people thinking about buying their first EV, I highly recommend EV charging at home or work, and ask if they can swing L2. If not, we talk some more ... some can make do with L1 reasonably well; I think the majority end up less than enthused.

 

[EfficientWatts]

LOL. Then we disagree. In my opinion, you're the one "gatekeeping EVs".

You're expecting ICE drivers to switch from 5 minute gas tank fills to "carefully plan your charging on a 120v". This will push people away from EVs. Giving someone a bunch of details and technical info just scares them.

what is this? I did not say that they have to carefully manage on 120V. I said that if they could manage on 120V, then they can go with 120V. If they determine that they need L2, then get L2. Obviously someone who drive like 200+ miles / day is not going to get by on just 120V charging.

You're the one who's gatekeeping, saying that only L1 = no EV for you (unless you fit a very specific profile). I'm saying If you can get by with L1, ev for you!

Believe it or not we are still "early adopters"... but the average consumer will be leery and range anxious about switching to EVs. Most ICE drivers I talk to still think that electric vehicles are only good for local driving.

What the average consumer needs to hear is something like "it's just a dryer plug in your garage".

As building codes change and evs becomes more popular, this will change. I agree that we would like to get to that point eventually .

What they DON'T need to hear is something like "you might be able to use a regular plug, how many miles do you drive a day? Just make sure you plug it in every time you get home and don't forget even once... also, in winter you might have problems, what's your average winter temperature? Maybe you need to park inside the garage... remember that short drives will waste a lot more energy preheating your battery... consider keeping your ICE vehicles around just in case".

Anyone who is already comfortable doing their research doesn't need us to tell them that they might be able to get by with 15A, however that information is already stated in this thread and I reiterated it... 15A will work for some people, some, most, or all of the time. For others though, 15A is insufficient.

I stand by my original sentiment - EV owners should get L2 charging if at all possible.

You're making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Those questions don't have to be asked like someone is being interrogated by TSA in rapid succession, a lot could be boiled down to

• how much do you drive on average
• where you live
• where you park

I do agree that if one has to ask a ton of questions to determine viability of L1 charging, then yea at that point it probably is better to just go to L2. But if the questioning can be kept limited and scoped, then I do not see any issue with that.

Anyone who is already comfortable doing their research doesn't need us to tell them that they might be able to get by with 15A, however that information is already stated in this thread and I reiterated it... 15A will work for some people, some, most, or all of the time. For others though, 15A is insufficient.

I stand by my original sentiment - EV owners should get L2 charging if at all possible.

I don't think our statements are incompatible. To be clear, I feel if one can, then yea upgrade to L2. But if that's not possible for whatever reason, if your driving pattern works with L1, then you can stick with that for now.

You make L1 charging sound like its some tightrope thing to walk where if you don't do exactly x,y,z then your car will fall apart. At the more extreme ends I would agree. But if your driving profile fits L1 charging if you treat it as if it were a L2 charger, then you can be fine with that for now at least. I would argue that there's a lot more people that could comfortably work with L1 than you think.

 

[father_of_6]

Yes.

 

[father_of_6]

On a totally unrelated note, the next time someone I know plans to buy a new stove, I'm hardcore going to try talking them into a toaster oven.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

You're making it a lot more complicated than it needs to be. Those questions don't have to be asked like someone is being interrogated by TSA in rapid succession, a lot could be boiled down to

• how much do you drive on average
• where you live
• where you park

I do agree that if one has to ask a ton of questions to determine viability of L1 charging, then yea at that point it probably is better to just go to L2. But if the questioning can be kept limited and scoped, then I do not see any issue with that.

I wouldn't start with average.

Question 1 is:
How long is your commute?

They can save a lot of time.

 

[Eric33432]

I have had my MX almost a year, and in my case I definitely need L2 charging. Do I need 48 amps? No but I have it because it is was just as easy to install a 60 amp circuit compared with something smaller.

Also have a MY for my wife, and she has her own Tesla Wall Connector. Totally not necessary, but I installed the second one because it was easy to do.

I have a number of friends who are intrigued that we are now all EV. They hear a lot of EV mis-information in the media. It seems like it has become a conservative vs. liberal argument probably because of the US government and all their mandates. I wish it was not because this is not a liberal vs. conservative thing. It IS, in my opinion, just a great car, fun to drive, and as far as fuel cost goes, very inexpensive if you live in a state where electricity is not 25¢ or more per kWh.

These friends have heard all the stories that making road trips are terrible in EVs, and for now the non-Tesla road trip might be that, but it will eventually change. For now, I tell them Tesla road trips for most places are no problem. I tell them by the time we go to the bathroom, stretch, get a drink or snack, the car is usually charged properly to continue our trip, etc.

For the people I know who are considering a Tesla, I have explained that you will charge at home (or possibly at work) unless you are on a road trip. You will wake up with a full "tank" every morning, there is nothing to worry about. I tell them that if you expect to drive more than 30-40 miles a day it is best to install a 240 volt circuit. It does not have to be a 60/48 amp circuit, even a 20/16 or 30/24 amp circuit would be good unless you are driving 200+ miles a day, or are an Uber driver.

I tell them having 60/48 amp charging can be nice if you want to top off your car more quickly. For example, if you drive in the morning, and then come home and plan on a long drive later that same day, having 48 amp charging can be nice to have. I have done that exactly 3 times in the time I have owned my MX.

And I tell them that having any amount of 240 volt charging, even 15/12 amp charging, will likely be satisfactory the vast majority of situations if that is all they can install due to their electrical system's limited capacity.

I think charging anxiety is real. I know it was for me before I purchased my MX, but thankfully I had a friend who has a MS who explained all this to me, and it was easy to install our Tesla Wall Connectors since our electrical panels are in the garage and we have 400 amp service.

Thank you for reading my comments.

 

[jeremymc7]

Yeah I love that I can change my car at home while I sleep, at amusement parks while I’m there all day, at hotels while I sleep overnight.

Sure I can charge while I wait for 30-45 min at a charger during a road trip but I also need bathroom or food break during those tips as well. Even many national parks let you charge while out hiking.

How many ICE cars can top of their tank while your your not there and out having fund, doing work or sleeping.

Even my office installed a dozen high speed chargers and they’re all free. I can get a full rake from empty just for leaving the car in the lot where an ICE car would just be sitting doing nothing there while parked.

Not to mention on cold or hot days the car will be at my preferred temp including seat heaters by the time I get to it. Not too many ICE cars that will do that. Especially since it will just drain the tank while the EV will just suck energy while needed to make sure it’s still a full tank.

Love it.

ICE will be dead soon enough.

 

[ewoodrick]

What the average consumer needs to hear is something like "it's just a dryer plug in your garage".

What they DON'T need to hear is something like "you might be able to use a regular plug, how many miles do you drive a day? Just make sure you plug it in every time you get home and don't forget even once... also, in winter you might have problems, what's your average winter temperature? Maybe you need to park inside the garage... remember that short drives will waste a lot more energy preheating your battery... consider keeping your ICE vehicles around just in case".

Anyone who is already comfortable doing their research doesn't need us to tell them that they might be able to get by with 15A, however that information is already stated in this thread and I reiterated it... 15A will work for some people, some, most, or all of the time. For others though, 15A is insufficient.

I stand by my original sentiment - EV owners should get L2 charging if at all possible.

You know what's worse than hearing the hearing that you don't need a dryer plug or better?

That's hearing that you DO need one.

There are a LOT of situations in the US in which a car owner doesn't have access to a dryer plug or better. There are a lot of situations where the car owner doesn't even have access to a 120V 15A plug. How many people park in parking garages or on the street?

To get a dryer plug installed in the garage sometimes can cost well north of $5,000.

My last house I had a NEMA 14-50 and a 120V 15A plug that I charged two Teslas off of. It wasn't a problem.
At this house, we have a single 120V 15A circuit that we alternate the two cars off of.

That's right, not only is it easily possible to charge a car off of 120V 15A, we charge 2 Tesla's off of it.

Sure you're not going to do it with long commutes, we don't have them.


What we SHOULD be telling people is that the 240V 60A circuit is preferred, but it may be easily possible to use a lot less.
And if charging at work is available, charging at home probably isn't required.

Even if you drive more than 60 miles per day (120V 15A @12hours) if you have a Supercharger around, you can use the 120V 15A at home and then maybe once a week hit the Supercharger for a few minutes.

 

[jeremymc7]

My last house I had a NEMA 14-50 and a 120V 15A plug that I charged two Teslas off of. It wasn't a problem.
At this house, we have a single 120V 15A circuit that we alternate the two cars off of.

That's right, not only is it easily possible to charge a car off of 120V 15A, we charge 2 Tesla's off of it.

Even my 60’s house has quality solid core 20A copper wiring so I swapped the 15A outlets in the garage to charge the Tesla at 20A instead of 20A.

Good speed improvement and only cost the trivial amount of a quality industrial Bryant / Hubbell outlet.

 

[SageBrush]

Even my 60’s house has quality solid core 20A copper wiring so I swapped the 15A outlets in the garage to charge the Tesla at 20A instead of 20A.

Good speed improvement and only cost the trivial amount of a quality industrial Bryant / Hubbell outlet.

Nice move, but be mindful of using other receptacles on the same circuit while the car is charging.

If you can dedicate the circuit to the EV charging, you can easily and cheaply more than double the power by changing it to 240V

 

[jeremymc7]

Nice move, but be mindful of using other receptacles on the same circuit while the car is charging.

That’s why I toned our car very outlet and switch before hand.

you can easily and cheaply more than double the power by changing it to 240V

Not easy or cheap. The panel to garage is 100 feet. There is no extra spots in the panel for the extra breaker to switch to to 240V. The electricians that looked at it said it would be complicated and expensive given all the rewriting the house has had done over the last 50+ years and might damage the existing wiring while attempting.

 

[SageBrush]

The panel to garage is 100 feet.

Will not matter. Voltage drop is minor, about 6V

There is no extra spots in the panel for the extra breaker to switch to to 240V.

Even if you use tandem breakers ? Worse case, put in a small sub-panel. $40

The electricians that looked at it said it would be complicated and expensive given all the rewriting the house has had done over the last 50+ years and might damage the existing wiring while attempting.

Uh-huh

 

[father_of_6]

Not easy or cheap. The panel to garage is 100 feet. There is no extra spots in the panel for the extra breaker to switch to to 240V. The electricians that looked at it said it would be complicated and expensive given all the rewriting the house has had done over the last 50+ years and might damage the existing wiring while attempting.

If you have 12 gauge running from your panel to the garage, you're more than half way there. 2 hots and a ground is all you need, so the wiring is done.

I'm sure a knowledgeable electrician can solve the breaker issue if you're maxed out.