I agree in the quarter it will win by almost a half second (2013 BMW Alpina B7 xDrive Long-Wheelbase 0-60 mph 3.8 | Quarter mile 12.0 from zeroto60times.com). From 50+, I don't think that would be the case. I have watched tons of races. And every one that the Tesla won looked like if it went a few more car lengths, it loses. Just being realistic here. My point was that the performance is not a night and day difference. And for passing power on the highway where everyone is already doing 65-70, the two vehicles will not even be close. And you are right, I previously stated I did not drive the best one, and that would be a better comparison on the performance side. However my main complains with the lack of interior quality and convenience would still be the same. Then again, I am not looking at a brand new Tesla either. Take a year or two old, and the Tesla cost more still. And that is comparing the best model. Mine is a 2013 and right now probably worth 75k having every single option. As of now, I cannot get a P85D for anywhere near that price. I figured maybe I eventually find one for 90k. Maybe have to take 70 for mine. Just does not seem to be worth the 15-20k difference to me. Money aside, the vehicle felt like a downgrade. I am trying so hard to not sound like I am bashing Tesla here as I am not in any way, but at the same time am being realistic and responding to comments. I like the car. It just did not take me by storm likely due to what I currently own, and a few others that I have in the past. I am not the guy who is attached and want to keep my car forever either. I am 42 and have owned over 50 of them, so that not whats holding me back in any way. I do appreciate all the input though from everyone here. I am hooked on this forum and will continue to read it daily. And as previously stated several times, I will own one at some point.
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I agree in the quarter it will win by almost a half second (2013 BMW Alpina B7 xDrive Long-Wheelbase 0-60 mph 3.8 | Quarter mile 12.0 from zeroto60times.com). From 50+, I don't think that would be the case. I have watched tons of races. And every one that the Tesla won looked like if it went a few more car lengths, it loses. Just being realistic here. My point was that the performance is not a night and day difference. And for passing power on the highway where everyone is already doing 65-70, the two vehicles will not even be close. And you are right, I previously stated I did not drive the best one, and that would be a better comparison on the performance side. However my main complains with the lack of interior quality and convenience would still be the same. Then again, I am not looking at a brand new Tesla either. Take a year or two old, and the Tesla cost more still. And that is comparing the best model. Mine is a 2013 and right now probably worth 75k having every single option. As of now, I cannot get a P85D for anywhere near that price. I figured maybe I eventually find one for 90k. Maybe have to take 70 for mine. Just does not seem to be worth the 15-20k difference to me. Money aside, the vehicle felt like a downgrade. I am trying so hard to not sound like I am bashing Tesla here as I am not in any way, but at the same time am being realistic and responding to comments. I like the car. It just did not take me by storm likely due to what I currently own, and a few others that I have in the past. I am not the guy who is attached and want to keep my car forever either. I am 42 and have owned over 50 of them, so that not whats holding me back in any way. I do appreciate all the input though from everyone here. I am hooked on this forum and will continue to read it daily. And as previously stated several times, I will own one at some point.
The data shows the Tesla crushes the B7 from 50-70mph. 1.8s for the Tesla is better than every car under a million bucks. The 2011 B7 is 3.2s.
jpwe10
Member
See this. Ludicrous definitley makes a big difference at passing speeds. And this is a ludicrous P85D, not even a ludicrous P90D, which is even slightly quicker: One Week in to Ludicrous
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
So you have two children, and reside in New Jersey…
Are the following factors in yours and your significant others decision to get, or not get a Tesla (or any other battery electric vehicle):
1. Man-Made Climate Change – which as of today has caused a global mean sea-level rise of ~ 9-10 inches since ~1880 which is already impacting Miami, and also was a factor in the so called ‘Superstorm Sandy’ flooding of NYC in 2012, and the flooding of New Orleans in 2005. And which is causing the current drought in California.
2. National Security. The gasoline you’re filling the B7 and the M6 with is contributing to funding the “Islamic state”, Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia et. al… With a Tesla that money could be spent supporting US made energy instead.
Why not ‘at least’ sell the M6 (or preferably the B7 as that probably has the worst gas mileage…), and replace one of them with a Tesla Model S?
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2011 B7 has 40 less HP thank my 2013. Although I am sure that's not a huge a difference. 50-70 is a highway entrance speed and not relative to me. However I would love to compare on the highway from 70+. Given that the Alpina has nearly a 40MPH top speed advantage, I was thinking it wouldn't be close from 70 on. From reading in here that was the biggest downfall for the Tesla even the upgraded ones, although improved. But here we are comparing it on the highway to a car built to be driven on the Autobahn.....Either way, again performance was not my biggest issue. I am sure the 0-60 is insane, but the Ludicrous puts it even at a higher price disadvantage when searching for pre-owned.
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I actually thought about the M6, but with my equity position on the low side, it didn't make sense to get rid of it and double my cost. I am for being green, but not my total reason for change. There are a million to one gas powered cars sold compared to electric (likely exaggerating there). I know we use electric to power these which does affect environment. I am sure the affect of repairs on a Tesla does not affect the environment, but certainly does the economy when charging 20k to repair a fender (insurance rate hikes etc.). I never questioned my children's safety in the Tesla as I know it is amazing in that category. Only the faith in the car steering itself with them in it. Not knocking anyone who does this, and I am sure it is better when you are experienced with it, but on our test drive, it was going to head into a median if we didn't react. If it causes one accident that causes harm to anyone, it is not worth having to me.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
There seems to be an easy fix…
Just steer the car yourself. Especially since currently no premium car manufacturer offers a car that can drive itself (!)
I’ve been hand steering automobiles since I’ve got my license some 21 years ago. It’s worked like a charm this far…
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And since I’m such a curious little Swede…
What could possibly be more important than the future of your children?
I understand some people are more extreme than others on this topic, and I will not head in that direction here. If you feel that your car purchase helped save our children, I commend you on that. When I see electric cars are 2-1 vs gas, I would expect a difference with maybe our children's great grand children. If I were truly green, I'd buy an inexpensive electric car that is not overly priced, or 10x the repair cost of another similar vehicle so that I can both be green, and help the economy. I can definitely protect my children's future more by forcing them to have better eating habits, and eating 100% organic also. Like I said, some are more extreme than others.
AndreyATC
Member
OP,
Any variation of speed that keeps you out of jail is significantly faster/quicker with Tesla
P90D traps at 118mph vs 116 and full second sooner then Alpina
So any reasonable high speed pull is still faster in S
And this is before we even go to conversation on how ICE has to rev and downshift before it gets going
In real life, pretty much at any speed you'd be looking at Tesla's rear end
As for your kids, they'd be pretty happy to exchange comfort of their seats for personal roller-coaster
Any variation of speed that keeps you out of jail is significantly faster/quicker with Tesla
P90D traps at 118mph vs 116 and full second sooner then Alpina
So any reasonable high speed pull is still faster in S
And this is before we even go to conversation on how ICE has to rev and downshift before it gets going
In real life, pretty much at any speed you'd be looking at Tesla's rear end
As for your kids, they'd be pretty happy to exchange comfort of their seats for personal roller-coaster
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Roamer
Member
Roamer,
My PD is just as lively as my P+; I'm just going faster in the PD
And I am very confidant you are doing it much better than I can. I always enjoy your comments and perspective on performance driving.
I have a neighbor that has raced the Viper comp coupes for many years. After he finished mocking and ridiculing my silly electric car I asked him if he would lower his standards and tolerate a test drive. We live in a rural area with some nice divided roads with a few sweeping curves. I had him do a full stop heading into a sweeping turn, then said put it on the floor and don't let up until you can't take it. At 110 mph he let off and said "What the hell is this thing, holy s__t. You know the typical reaction...... Can't wait to do it again after I get the ludicrous upgrade installed.
So so yes the PD is incredible.
Makes sense. I have been reading since you posted this and I see it. I just was not really looking at a p90D. Just way too much money for just speed really. I know it is a decent car all around, and I truly wanted to be blown away by it. I just could not get past the mid level interior, and lack of simple things inside. I am probably a few years away from getting one at this point. I want to see what Apple, and google does with their vehicles. Also what happens with Lithium as I know it has skyrocketed due to the high demand. Right now, Tesla has the only beautiful electric car that people do not mind being seen in. I have a feeling there will be some competition really soon that may help save us money, and bring the prices down to where they should be.
One important to thing to keep in mind is the nature of big high performance, high torque engines is that they too have lots of torque. In addition, they tend to be pretty dang smooth and have very nice automatic transmissions. At part throttle acceleration (i.e. 99.99% of driving), they too feel pretty effortless when it comes to acceleration. Are they single speed, electric smooth - nope. However, we aren't comparing the Tesla to a Camry or an Accord here. The "driving experience" delta is surely still there, but just not as dramatic as it is in some of the comparison we see here on TMC. Indeed, my wife's cars is a Volvo XC60 with 325HP and 354 ft lbs of torque. When we take it in for service, we usually get a loaner with about 75 less HP and 100 ft lbs less torque. The loaner is "fine", but one of the most pronounced differences is the downshifting the lower torque engines require for passing maneuvers (often dropping more than one gear) vs. her car. Her car sometimes requires a downshift and sometimes does not. The torque just carries it. Now, do I like that her car seems to be perpetually out of gas - uh, no. I actually find the cost of filling up to be less annoying than simply having to do so all the time! (Note: full disclosure: I do not own a Tesla, but owned a Volt for 3 years, and have had several high horse V8 cars).
AndreyATC
Member
Apple and google might be years away if any.
I'm so happy i ditched my 90K Audi and 100K X6M for Tesla, which is my second now, and I've been die-hard BMW fan for years
You can always wait for latest and greatest, but honestly, MS is the latest and greatest IMHO
It may lack some features and finish, but it well makes up with other things
I just came back from 12hr trip towing (yes, MS was towing 1500lb worth of load) and realized that i wasnt beat up at all after such long journey
I used Autopilot 90% of the way and it REALLY helps to get from one point to another safely
Also huge item on my list, i can pre-heat or pre-cool my car from my phone.
It works really well when you have extreme cold or heat season, or dont feel like removing ice/snow from your car
You spend hours on gas stations when you take whole year into the picture
List goes on
Bottom line for me is - i dont even miss any extra features of my ICE cars
With what Tesla has to offer, those fine automobiles become ice age items
I am 42 also and go through cars a lot. I just got the P90D model S a week ago and love it. I came from a modified newer Audi S6 which had over 600hp and was amazing with luxury, amenities and performance. I was looking at the new 750, S class sedan/coupe, S8plus, and Range Rover SC. I ruled out the 7 series after a few test drives because the S class was just much better for what I want. I would not even look at Tesla because everytime I sat in one at the mall, it was just so meh! My friends (car enthusiast) said you have to test drive it, it is like nothing else. So before pulling the trigger on a S class, I took the family to test drive it. We then ate lunch, wife said get this over all the others, it is amazing. I agreed and put deposit on it.
It drives just as smooth as the S class, is much faster and enjoyable to drive, has more usable tech and yet lacks the interior luxury I love. I don't mind though. For me it was the best choice, and we are so impressed that my wife now wants to trade in her minivan for the model X.
BTW I have a McLaren 12C and I don't even care to drive it anymore. I will be keeping it for my track days, but as I used to drive it to the gym, I would rather drive the P90D. Its probably because its my new toy for now, but that says a lot.
It drives just as smooth as the S class, is much faster and enjoyable to drive, has more usable tech and yet lacks the interior luxury I love. I don't mind though. For me it was the best choice, and we are so impressed that my wife now wants to trade in her minivan for the model X.
BTW I have a McLaren 12C and I don't even care to drive it anymore. I will be keeping it for my track days, but as I used to drive it to the gym, I would rather drive the P90D. Its probably because its my new toy for now, but that says a lot.
eye.surgeon
Active Member
I would agree with you that if a luxurious interior is a high priority you'd be better off keeping what you have. Many of us came from far more luxurious vehicles, a Range Rover in my case, because the luxury wasn't as appealing as the EV experience. But it's not for everyone. The next gen Model S, if Tesla lasts that long, will no doubt be far more competitive in this area.
I agree 100% with the fact that they will improve. Of course some of us buy cars, and will make it sound like the best things ever due to us having it at that time. Then we move on to something else that is the best thing ever again. Once Tesla improves in comfort, I will definitely be in. In mine, and my wife's opinion, previously having a couple of 7 series(and currently the B7), and an S class in addition to an Audi A8L, the ride was not even close as far as comfort, and I did test drive a 90D with air suspension. I rank the Benz 1st, BMW 2nd, Audi 3rd in that mix. I even had a Hyundai Equus which I loved that I put 2nd to the Benz (burned oil, lemon law buyback). Part of it was due to the seats in the Tesla i'm sure, but it just did not glide like the others. I am into performance, and if I would buy one now, it would be mostly for that. Another thing that I fear is that since the luxury electric class is so new (one company right now), and the fact that I feel it is way overpriced right now, I do not want to be stuck way upside down in something I am eager to get out of in a year.
Roamer
Member
I love the clean simple and functional interior of the Model S and now the X. I can't stand to sit in the dodaded and over trimmed supposed luxury cars. Lots of useless buttons and bells. Give me clean simple function. It is so serene to road trip in a Tesla.
My first reaction to my first S was almost shock at how simple and functional it was. Now I like it and don't feel like I am in my grandmas living room like when I sit in other car fake cluttered up pretend luxury interiors. More buttons to me just means less effort was put into functional design of the controls.
Old habbits can be difficult to change. I now really like clean and uncluttered.
What you drive should be what you like. Drive what makes you happy. I don't think I could ever go back to driving a dodaded up boat. So I drive what I like also. I can breathe easy with my Teslas. Number five should deliver in a few weeks. Resale is not an issue since we never let them out of the family. I have a really long hand me down waiting list.
My first reaction to my first S was almost shock at how simple and functional it was. Now I like it and don't feel like I am in my grandmas living room like when I sit in other car fake cluttered up pretend luxury interiors. More buttons to me just means less effort was put into functional design of the controls.
Old habbits can be difficult to change. I now really like clean and uncluttered.
What you drive should be what you like. Drive what makes you happy. I don't think I could ever go back to driving a dodaded up boat. So I drive what I like also. I can breathe easy with my Teslas. Number five should deliver in a few weeks. Resale is not an issue since we never let them out of the family. I have a really long hand me down waiting list.
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I agree to an extent. You pay more to sit in first class on a plane to be comfortable. In this case, I feel like I am paying for it, but not getting it. I do get where simple can be better, but I just expect to pay for simple.
Roamer
Member
For me the next gen S seats and the perforated seats on the X solved the comfort issues completly. Both are very comfortable on road trips. We recently did an 800 mile + one day round trip in the X. The trip included three hours in LA rush hour traffic to go 30 miles. That delay made it a really long day. Between using auto drive for almost the entire drive and the X perforated seats the trip was very comfortable. My wife commented that she was surprised how nice the over 12 hours in the car turned out. I think the five Super Charger stops also helped prevent tired butt and seat fatigue.
SDRick
Active Member
I can appreciate simple as well although for some functions I prefer a hard button rather than a computer screen. Buttons aside, some of the luxury that euro fans appreciate are things that are not immediately obvious or visible. Things like seat comfort and function(s), soundproofing, soft close doors and interior materials are expected or at least should be offered especially north of six figures.
boonedocks
MS LR Blk/Blk 19”
@SDRick I think you said it perfectly. I would also be willing to bet that most of the people responding in this thread have NOT owned a maxed out with all the options BMW 7 or Mercedes S. There really is no comparison or way to portray the level of comfort and luxury of these class of cars. As I have stated I have 22K miles on my June '15 delivered Model S85D and would not give it up for any other car available today. With that said, we still take our BMW AH7 out on date nights and long"er" trips because it is one of the most comfortable and luxurious cars available. When NOT in A/P mode in my Tesla, the BMW is still the easiest and best driving car I have ever driven. I feel comfortable saying and backing everything I have said because I DO have 120K miles actually IN that car. If you have ever flown coach and then flown first class in a first class seat, that is a good example of the difference in the way the seats feel and comfort of BMW 7 compared to a MS 85. I am not knocking our Tesla's at all and as I have stated over and over, for my daily commute purposes, I would not have any other car than my MS I have now.
