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Feedback on Hankook 21s?

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Sorry guys but I think all what you write regarding the (good) grip of Hankooks is completely wrong. THEY ARE TERRIBLE, I WILL NEVER GET THEM AGAIN. I replaced my contis as I had terrible wear (which today I know was all due to total misaligment with more than -1 toe out) and wanted to try the cheapest alternative. I get wheel spin at 35 mph !! Basically I cannot at any place floor it from zero, it's just tracktion control kicking in up to 35 mph. So a P with the hankooks is basically useless ! I did not have that issue with the contis, I will get them again.

Wear though is MUCH MUCH better on the Hankooks, I would say you get double the mileage. This all makes sense, softer tires= better grip but worse wear.

gimp_dad, do the 285 completey prevent wheel spin ? I love the turbine wheels and do not really want to change them, but on the other side I want to have the full benefits of a P and not wait until 35 mph to floor it ! Is there a photo posted somewhere of your car ? How much are the 285 hankooks ?

Three comments:
1. The 285s change the dynamics with hard cornering. I assume this is more about relative cornering grip between front and rear,
2. I certainly do not think the Hankooks are stickier than true performance tires like PS2s, PSSs, 5Ps, etc.
3. Grip does not = zero wheel spin. It all depends on power. If you have driven a true sports car, you know that usually with fantastic power/weight ratio you can spin almost any street legal tire (as long as traction control is not too intrusive).

The reason sports cars allow some wheel spin is because that increases total performance. Just watch a Ferrari, Ford GT, Corvette Z06, Lotus Exige (even) on the track and you will see drivers creating wheel spin both on the straights as well as on exit of the apex of a turn. It is a good thing. Poor grip is not a good thing.

No way are Hancock V12s going to give you competitive track times vs PSSs or PS2s (as long as it isn't too cold).

For a rear wheel drive car a stagger setup for any given tire is going to give you more ability to apply power at an apex (unless there isn't more power available) than a non-stagger setup. The higher the relative corner grip of rear vs front, the harder it is to dial in over steer (tires beginning to spin under hard acceleration while cornering). Over steer increases ability to corner at the max possible speed but you only want it up to a point. Once you get too sideways it has the opposite effect and can get you into a lot of trouble (you spin around and lose control). Meanwhile, understeer causes you to go straight when you think you are going to turn but keeps your car from spinning out.

It's generally considered safer to have understeer for non-performance oriented drivers as spinning out puts you out of control in a worse way and braking exacerbates the spin out while braking actually helps the understeer issues.

The MS has pretty darn intrusive traction and stability control. If you leave these on, wheel spin should generally not rise to the level of dangerous once you get used to metering the throttle properly for your situation. It's just that a lot of people aren't used to the amount of low end power and torque available on a P85 or P85+. Even the lowest performance tire options that are OEM for the MS are relatively high performance but the powertrain performance is high enough to still make those wheels brake lose in some of the programming modes.

I personally would like to see at least two or three traction/stability control modes to allow more spin than currently allowed and possibly make the default mode even more conservative.
 
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I am just a regular person who doesn't have great racetrack abilities/need. I just like to smoke the guy in the lane next to me at the lights especially if they are driving high powered ICE vehicles. Will the Hankooks do as well as the Conti's in this situation?

Yes. And for almost 1/2 the price of the Conti's and other tires that people insist they must have because they are more expensive or have seen an ad for them.
 
I am just a regular person who doesn't have great racetrack abilities/need. I just like to smoke the guy in the lane next to me at the lights especially if they are driving high powered ICE vehicles. Will the Hankooks do as well as the Conti's in this situation?

I wouldn't count on it. Conti 5Ps, PS2s or PSSs would probably do that. They all have stickier rubber. Contact patch is approximately the same size for all the tires mentioned. It all comes down to rubber compound. Stickier compound is generally softer but usually wears out quicker. Hankooks and DWs are both compromise tires that wear longer than the above. In the case of Hankooks, you get a pretty big cost benefit. In the case of DWs you get more wet weather flexibility and ride compliance.

I am not a reviewer and haven't done any objective testing here. This is all seat of the pants. I think based on my experience that DWs have too soft of a sidewall which makes cornering weak. Hankooks handle better but have pretty hard rubber. They behave a lot more linearly in cornering under hard acceleration but they aren't stickier (probably less sticky even than the DWs). Not sure which one would win 0-60 but neither would be the best in class.
 
Isn't hard rubber better in the heat. I live in Socal where it is never cold.

SoCal is the best place to have sticky performance tires. They perform well all the time, whereas in cool weather they become very slippery because they don't have much tread and the compound does not grip in colder weather. The performance tires are designed to do well in warm weather. That doesn't mean you should get them just because you live in SoCal. It just means, they would do what they are designed to do. There is no way a harder compound will do better in summer weather than a sticky performance compound.

If you want reasonable tread life I would go with the 19s or use the DWs with the 21" rims. That's a pretty reasonable trade off.

If you want the look/feel of staggered tires and want to spend a bit more, a 20" setup with PSSs sounds like a fantastic option and their hybrid compound gives you quite good wear for such a high performance tire. They still aren't cheap but also aren't that much more than the DWs. They might be the best performance street-able option.

The PS2s are still lighter than the PSSs but cost a lot more. Since they are an older design it is believable that a more flexible tire (PSS) may actually outperform a less flexible performance summer tire (PS2) but I am still planning to try PS2 when the Hankooks wear out to see for myself. Since I have a 21" setup PSSs aren't yet an option unless they start selling the 245/35/21 (not shipping and no schedule to do so) to go with the 295/30/21 as a combo.

If you want the look of a staggered setup with a great price and decent performance, it is very hard to beat the Hankooks. I have no complaints about these given my expectations were realistic.
 
Well, bugger. I just talked to Tesla service and Tesla outright refuses to install a tire Tesla doesn't officially sell, so they won't install the Hankooks. Given the SC is probably the only place that knows how to deal with the air suspension, I'm really stuck for options.

Edit: they just called back and you have to sign a waiver, which is fine. My SC charges $175 for the installation +$3/tire for recycling.
 
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watch out for the tire lug nuts

Thank you for a voice of reason out here.
I've been running these tires for about 7000 miles now.
And I am happy with them because I don't race the car on the streets.

Knowledge of the air suspension and Jack mode
is all that is special for installing new tires.
The tire pressure sensors should not be a problem.

One thing to watch out for the tire lug nuts
have caps on them that are very soft.

When I brought my car back to Tesla to complain about what they had done about
distorting the shape of the lug nuts they tried to blame the tire shop I used.
I know that not to be the problem because I checked the torque
on my own wheels after getting new tires.
The service center tools will distort the lug nuts in time.

I think they've seen this before they didn't have to order a full set
they have them in stock when I made a stink!

The technician was inappropriate in the way saying that Tesla
does not install these tires.
This seems to be a football at the service centers.

I asked them if they would install something other then DW I had trouble with
and they said no.

Just be prepared for a game at the service centers!!!!!!
will Tesla be the next Microsoft?
 
Tesla installs caps on the lug nuts only if you have the grey wheels, so the silver lug nuts aren't so obvious. Is that what you mean? Otherwise, the lug nut is solid metal with no artificial veneer or cap.

The torque spec for these lugs is extremely high relative to similar vehicles. Like all lug nuts, they'll probably develop external blemishes with use, and more so given the torques involved. You can avoid these blemishes if you're careful to fully seat your socket prior to torquing and by using a torque wrench instead of an impact wrench. Tesla was probably right to suspect the shop because damage to lugs is most commonly caused by over-torquing with an impact wrench. Either your 3rd party shop or the Tesla Service Center itself is likely to blame.
 
Oh, forgot to mention. You have to sign the waiver even if it's a tire Tesla does sell, but you bought it from a 3rd party like Tire Rack.

FYI, Tesla's price for new Continental Extreme is something like $1650. If you order from Tire Rack, you can get the same tires for about $1250 after shipping which is still much less than Tesla even after the $175 installation fee Tesla charges.
 
Tesla installs caps on the lug nuts only if you have the grey wheels, so the silver lug nuts aren't so obvious. Is that what you mean? Otherwise, the lug nut is solid metal with no artificial veneer or cap.

The torque spec for these lugs is extremely high relative to similar vehicles. Like all lug nuts, they'll probably develop external blemishes with use, and more so given the torques involved. You can avoid these blemishes if you're careful to fully seat your socket prior to torquing and by using a torque wrench instead of an impact wrench. Tesla was probably right to suspect the shop because damage to lugs is most commonly caused by over-torquing with an impact wrench. Either your 3rd party shop or the Tesla Service Center itself is likely to blame.

I think the original Performance lugs were different. Mine are black rubberized, no caps. They are getting thrashed a bit since I have changed/rotated wheels > 10 times
 
I think the original Performance lugs were different. Mine are black rubberized, no caps. They are getting thrashed a bit since I have changed/rotated wheels > 10 times
Of course they are... hehe. Tesla changes things with such rapid frequency, I should stop assuming the way it is now is the way it's always been, apparently even for something as simple as a lug nut. :redface:
 
Oh, forgot to mention. You have to sign the waiver even if it's a tire Tesla does sell, but you bought it from a 3rd party like Tire Rack.

FYI, Tesla's price for new Continental Extreme is something like $1650. If you order from Tire Rack, you can get the same tires for about $1250 after shipping which is still much less than Tesla even after the $175 installation fee Tesla charges.

I just bought 2 new Michelin PS2s to replace my OEM rear tires from Tire Rack and had them sipped to my local Tesla service center. When I called to arrange installation the manager stated that they would not install any tires unless they were bought through Tesla. Something about liability...DOT registration...not a dealership...whatever. Although they mounted a tire for me about 6 months ago due to a sidewall defect (ordered through Tire Rack), the manager insisted that this was always their policy (to not mount tires bought elsewhere) but it has been a gray area. Apparently they are now enforcing the policy. YMMV.