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EV drivetrains take twice as long to assemble as internal combustion engines

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Really?

A recent study by researchers at Carnegie Mellon University found that manufacturing EV motors and batteries required roughly double as many man-hours as an internal combustion engine — up to 24 hours per machine.

“We were pretty surprised,” said Turner Cotterman, the lead on the report and currently an analyst at McKinsey & Co. “Across all scenarios we tested for … there was more labor in EV manufacturing than in [internal combustion] manufacturing.”


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Link: Auto Wage Hikes Complicate the Search for an Affordable EV
 
The study is flawed if it only takes into account the drivetrain. They are comparing man hours of assembling an ICE motor to an electric motor/battery assembly. To get the whole picture you need to factor in the exhaust system, radiator and related parts, transmission, rear end, gas tank, etc. These are assemblies that the car will not run without. Even if your just talking about the engine, you still need the exhaust system, alternator, battery, coolant system, etc. These have been ignored. They also didn't take into account the man hours involved in manufacturing alternators, water pumps, coil packs, etc. These parts are usually farmed out to other manufacturers and need to be shipped to the assembly plant. The study that is referenced even says it only takes into account the man hours involved in shop floor assembly of the drivetrtain. Anyone wanting to confirm this can click on the OP's 'recent study' link. That leads to a summery of the study, but at the top of that click on 'Open in PDF' and the whole study is available. Page 10 of the study clearly outlines that none of the components I mentioned above are included in the study. It's not only flawed, it's actually useless.
 
The study is flawed if it only takes into account the drivetrain. They are comparing man hours of assembling an ICE motor to an electric motor/battery assembly. To get the whole picture you need to factor in the exhaust system, radiator and related parts, transmission, rear end, gas tank, etc. These are assemblies that the car will not run without. Even if your just talking about the engine, you still need the exhaust system, alternator, battery, coolant system, etc. These have been ignored. They also didn't take into account the man hours involved in manufacturing alternators, water pumps, coil packs, etc. These parts are usually farmed out to other manufacturers and need to be shipped to the assembly plant. The study that is referenced even says it only takes into account the man hours involved in shop floor assembly of the drivetrtain. Anyone wanting to confirm this can click on the OP's 'recent study' link. That leads to a summery of the study, but at the top of that click on 'Open in PDF' and the whole study is available. Page 10 of the study clearly outlines that none of the components I mentioned above are included in the study. It's not only flawed, it's actually useless.
My thoughts as well. What’s relevant is the total assembly time for the car, not just the drive train.
 
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The study is flawed if it only takes into account the drivetrain.
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It's not only flawed, it's actually useless.
Nope, it's a useful study, but not a complete picture. What is does pretty well is challenge some "conventional wisdom" (that an EV drivetrain is simpler and less labor intensive to produce) that's never been actually proven.
I went to a seminar where one of the authors (now at McKinsey) presented on the current state of the project, the slides are available here.. They are working to fill the gaps you mentioned.
 
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Nope, it's a useful study, but not a complete picture. What is does pretty well is challenge some "conventional wisdom" (that an EV drivetrain is simpler and less labor intensive to produce) that's never been actually proven.
I went to a seminar where one of the authors (now at McKinsey) presented on the current state of the project, the slides are available here.. They are working to fill the gaps you mentioned.
No where is the slide there is any explanation to the graphs!
 
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Nope, it's a useful study, but not a complete picture. What is does pretty well is challenge some "conventional wisdom" (that an EV drivetrain is simpler and less labor intensive to produce) that's never been actually proven.
I went to a seminar where one of the authors (now at McKinsey) presented on the current state of the project, the slides are available here.. They are working to fill the gaps you mentioned.
Unless you're on a design team, what's the point of only studying the drivetrain, it can't stand on it's own?

I'm really not trying to challenge you dsgerbc, I'm just trying to understand the purpose of the study, which was released in July of 2022. Glad they're updating it though.
 
Unless you're on a design team, what's the point of only studying the drivetrain, it can't stand on it's own?

I'm really not trying to challenge you dsgerbc, I'm just trying to understand the purpose of the study, which was released in July of 2022. Glad they're updating it though.
There are claims made left and right around Michigan and other Detroit-Three-heavy industrial areas that BEVs will kill tons of jobs in powertrain and related parts manufacturing. That analysis starts with that claim, as the one worrying policymakers the most, cause that's where a ton Midwest jos are.

Final assembly labor requirements aren't that different, since there's a lot more that has to be attached to vehicles other than the engine/transmission/battery.

In a way, that analysis is telling Midwest policymakers to start throwing money at battery manufacturing (again, in case of Michigan) or risk getting left behind. It's a message that will likely resonate well, explaining why one of the study authors is now with KcKinsey.
 
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The study is flawed if it only takes into account the drivetrain. They are comparing man hours of assembling an ICE motor to an electric motor/battery assembly. To get the whole picture you need to factor in the exhaust system, radiator and related parts, transmission, rear end, gas tank, etc. These are assemblies that the car will not run without. Even if your just talking about the engine, you still need the exhaust system, alternator, battery, coolant system, etc. These have been ignored. They also didn't take into account the man hours involved in manufacturing alternators, water pumps, coil packs, etc. These parts are usually farmed out to other manufacturers and need to be shipped to the assembly plant. The study that is referenced even says it only takes into account the man hours involved in shop floor assembly of the drivetrtain. Anyone wanting to confirm this can click on the OP's 'recent study' link. That leads to a summery of the study, but at the top of that click on 'Open in PDF' and the whole study is available. Page 10 of the study clearly outlines that none of the components I mentioned above are included in the study. It's not only flawed, it's actually useless.
Thank you for that! :)
 
Elon Musk has said on several occasions over the last few years that *production is hard* but he never went into extensive detail just a general overview about it. Manufacturing and mass production of EV autos at scale was new to Elon and the Tesla team when Model S went into production and because of this Tesla has no way to compare EV vs ICE manufacturing and production. But the Big Detroit Three(or Two for now) and other legacy auto manufacturers that are now doing EV's does. Oh I guess I should mention that Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares did complain about EV's and their cost more than once Stellantis CEO complains about being forced to make EVs and not knowing how to profit from them , but not how hard production was.

It is interesting to note that, at least to my knowledge, Elon is the only auto CEO that has made that statement(production is hard) and has done so many times.

The Tesla Semi won't have the advantage of giga castings so it will be built with a production line similar to ICE tractors.

So which one will be simpler/easier to manufacture, Tesla Semi or ICE tractors? Or will they be close to the same?
 
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I think just about everyone in the auto industry knew production was hard. Only someone trying it without experience would be shocked by the fact it is difficult. Looking at the complaints of Tesla build quality and the Cybertruck RCs they are still trying to figure manufacturing out…
 
Tesla does have an advantage in regards to semi assembly. The legacy manufacturers have expensive tooling built to support the assembly of the HD trucks. The changes they are able to make are less due to the fact they want to use their existing infrastructure if at all possible. Tesla not having legacy equipment does not have this constraint which could be a big bonus.

Without seeing more specific details on the design of the chassis and cab, its hard to say how much advantage they have.
 
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A recent study by researchers at Carnegie Mellon University found that manufacturing EV motors and batteries
required roughly double as many man-hours as an internal combustion engine — up to 24 hours per machine.

My impression is that the authors try to define a computing model to determine the cost of EV versus ICE which is quite a daunting task.
Some issues are that the data used seem a little bit old and there is no particular EV manufacturer or EV vehicle mentionned.



Note: Your really need to dig several web links to find the original Carnegie Mellon publication which can be downloaded for review:

The transition to electrified vehicles: Evaluating the labor demand of manufacturing conventional versus battery electric vehicle powertrains​
Date Written: 04 Jun 2022​
Download: https: // papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID4144987_code5279829.pdf​



Labor Demand per Unit (hours) - ICEV vs BEV .jpg
Page 21 - Figure 7:​
Industry data suggests that BEV powertrain manufacturing will require more labor hours than ICEVs under all expected scenarios.​
Note: In the figure, stacked outputs represent labor hours required for manufacturing of the full powertrain.​
In the case of the BEV powertrain labor hours estimate, we label the sources of battery data for each scenario on the plot.​
The least efficient case assumes the data provided for at-scale manufacturing of batteries by Firm I,
the base case assumes the base case data provided for at-scale manufacturing by IBS,​
and the most efficient case assumes the IBS automated estimate.​

Manufacturing Unit Cost - ICEV vs BED and Battery .jpg
Page 27 - Figure 8:​
Literature cost estimates of key powertrain components are compared to the production cost outputs​
of our PBCM populated with public manufacturing inputs.​
The differences between these two data types highlight the uncertainty between estimates,​
while the areas of overlap emphasize the similarities in modeling approaches.​
Note that the axes are different across each of the panes.​



Cost estimates by component (collected from the public literature and visualized in Figure 8).​
Page 34 Table 6:​
Battery pack [67]​
[67] “UBS Evidence Lab Electric Car Teardown—Disruption Ahead,” tech. rep., UBS, 2017.
Inverter [67, 84]​
[84] “Acceleration, Drive Cycle Efficiency, and Cost Tradeoffs for Scaled Electric Vehicle Drive System,” IEEE, 2020.​
Electric motor, drive [61, 67, 84, 108, 110, 111, 112, 113]​
[61] “Evaluation of Electric Vehicle Production and Operating Costs,” Argonne National Lab., IL (US), 1999.​
[108] “Techno-economic comparison of series hybrid, plug-in hybrid, fuel cell and regular cars,” Journal of Power Sources, 2010.​
[110] “Manufacturing and Cost Analysis for Aluminum and Copper Die Cast Induction Motors for GM’s Powertrain and R&D Divisions,”, MIT 2010.​
[111] “Comparing the Mass, Energy, and Cost Effects of Lightweighting in Conventional and Electric Passenger Vehicles,”, 2014.​
[112] “The Cost of Manufacturing Electric Vehicle Drivetrains,” University of California, Davis, 1999.​
[113] “Electric and Gasoline Vehicle Lifecycle Cost and Energy-Use Model,” University of California, Davis, April 2000.​
 
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