Enhanced Summon & Autonomous driving UK laws

[JAR897]

Where's the best place (other than these forums, of course!) to keep up-to-date about UK law changes etc related to self-driving, and the hopeful improvement of Summon/AP in the UK?

eg. When could we reasonably expect summon to work >1m away from car, etc etc?

 

[Medved_77]

Grant Shapps' LinkedIn is a good start for any announcements, regulation changes.

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[Pink Duck]

Also https://unece.org/transport/vehicle-regulations

 

[Billbrown1982]

I would imagine, if and when the legislation were to ever change, there will be such a celebration going on, you will hear about it.

 

[Wol747]

>>I would imagine, if and when the legislation were to ever change, there will be such a celebration going on, you will hear about it.<<

Week long parties of lawyers, private hospitals and body shops?

 

[MrJaffro]

This guy is really good at explaining the details on UNECE - https://youtube.com/c/StevenPeeters . I expect any updates to the regulation will end up being explained by him quite quickly. I think it's unlikely the UK will drop out of select parts of the UNECE, but you never know...

 

[joexn]

This guy is really good at explaining the details on UNECE - https://youtube.com/c/StevenPeeters . I expect any updates to the regulation will end up being explained by him quite quickly. I think it's unlikely the UK will drop out of select parts of the UNECE, but you never know...

If you want to help try, please share this: Petition: Opt-out of the UN/ECE Regulation 79
I've just had it approved.

 

[Pink Duck]

I've just had it approved.

Awsome, and signed because this regulation in terms of safety actually endangers Tesla owners.

 

[Mr_Dave]

Is there a petition that proposes the opposite view?

 

[Billbrown1982]

The UK likes to preach about being at the forefront for this kind of stuff. We've got housing estates being built that are setup to have a central hub of self driving cars so you just summon one to your front door when you want to go out etc.

But on the other hand, cars that "can self drive to some degree" are rediculously hamstrung by legislation.

Strange times.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Awsome, and signed because this regulation in terms of safety actually endangers Tesla owners.

Which rule endangers life? Having a maximum cornering force?

 

[Avendit]

Which rule endangers life? Having a maximum cornering force?

When you exceed the max cornering force on AP, you get 2 loud beeps and it hands you back control. Even being fully attentive with both hands on the wheel it's a scary dangerous situation half way round a corner to suddenly have the weight of the corner handed back to you.

Really it should see it coming and slow down enough not to exceed the limit, I'm not sure if the disengagement behaviour is mandated or not? So there could be some blame on both sides. (And we probably officially shouldn't be using AP in such situations by the manual)

 

[Dilly]

When you exceed the max cornering force on AP, you get 2 loud beeps and it hands you back control. Even being fully attentive with both hands on the wheel it's a scary dangerous situation half way round a corner to suddenly have the weight of the corner handed back to you.

Really it should see it coming and slow down enough not to exceed the limit, I'm not sure if the disengagement behaviour is mandated or not? So there could be some blame on both sides. (And we probably officially shouldn't be using AP in such situations by the manual)

Slowing for bends has been a bit back and forth. I often use AP on my local road and shouldn’t, but it’s a quiet road and good for noting differences between updates. There have been updates which knock 10 mph or more off bends. The current crop don’t change speed at all.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

When you exceed the max cornering force on AP, you get 2 loud beeps and it hands you back control. Even being fully attentive with both hands on the wheel it's a scary dangerous situation half way round a corner to suddenly have the weight of the corner handed back to you.

Really it should see it coming and slow down enough not to exceed the limit, I'm not sure if the disengagement behaviour is mandated or not? So there could be some blame on both sides. (And we probably officially shouldn't be using AP in such situations by the manual)

Thats the perfect example of poor implementation by Tesla. Tesla should be able to calculate the cornering forces involved BEFORE they reach the corner so they can adjust the speed AHEAD of the corner or decide to disengage rather than try and make an adjustment mid corner - thats how good drivers drive.. They say they slow for corners, so why does the car ever reach the situation it disengages mid corner because its suddenly realised its going too fast? If they can't work out the cornering forces, how will they be able to safely pick a speed it can take the corner at? I would agree the limit is low at the moment, but that doesn't excuse Tesla for not being able to understand the rules and when they show competence the limits can be increased.

Tesla eventually will have to be assessing the lateral G for a corner. assessing the road temperature, whether the road is wet or potentially icy, maybe if its muddy or covered in gravel, the stopping distances based on how far ahead it can see etc etc and intelligently pick a safe speed for the corner based on those parameters and enter the corner at an appropriate speed. It simply doesn't at the moment. Don't blame the regulator for exposing a weakness in Teslas capabilities.

 

[Pink Duck]

It's not just the cornering parameters introduced with the regulation (which some of the UK's dual carriageway roads breach, causing alarms or control throwback, when a human driver would continue regardless). There's also the auto-lane change timeouts that means several seconds after initiation the car will rapidly revert itself from 75% into the target lane back to the origin lane, surprising the heck out of nearby motorists who see no reason at all for abandoning the manoeuvre. Both these things increase the risk of collision and add nothing to safety. Even some rural A roads with their near 90° bends, after significant deceleration, result in auto-steer disengage due to rate of steering required.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

It's not just the cornering parameters introduced with the regulation (which some of the UK's dual carriageway roads breach, causing alarms or control throwback, when a human driver would continue regardless). There's also the auto-lane change timeouts that means several seconds after initiation the car will rapidly revert itself from 75% into the target lane back to the origin lane, surprising the heck out of nearby motorists who see no reason at all for abandoning the manoeuvre. Both these things increase the risk of collision and add nothing to safety. Even some rural A roads with their near 90° bends, after significant deceleration, result in auto-steer disengage due to rate of steering required.

I've never had it get 75% across the road and revert. I find the delay Tesla have put in annoying but that has nothing to do with the regulations that I can see, it's just a myth propogated by a few and latched onto by the many.

The regulation blame thing really feels like nothing more than a desire to blame someone other than Tesla.

 

[GRiLLA]

It's not just the cornering parameters introduced with the regulation (which some of the UK's dual carriageway roads breach, causing alarms or control throwback, when a human driver would continue regardless). There's also the auto-lane change timeouts that means several seconds after initiation the car will rapidly revert itself from 75% into the target lane back to the origin lane, surprising the heck out of nearby motorists who see no reason at all for abandoning the manoeuvre. Both these things increase the risk of collision and add nothing to safety. Even some rural A roads with their near 90° bends, after significant deceleration, result in auto-steer disengage due to rate of steering required.

Do you have FSD or EAP? There really isn't an issue with lane change, other than it require more space than some people are comfortable with. I use it every day, and haven't had one abort for well over a year. I've also never had a cornering issue on a motorway, and don't use AP on other roads.

 

[Pink Duck]

I have all the software options and my post was based on first-hand experience. The lane change aborts are due to the regulation timing requirements. It'll happen if nearly 5 seconds are used after indicating begins before a viable lane switch is detected and acted upon. I had to take control to un-do the lane revert just this Thursday afternoon on dual carriageway before an exit.

A stretch of A47 at 70 mph in lane 2 is sufficient to breach the regulation limits. Though I do wonder if that was a construction design fault or just that the UK highways agency's own technical specification is more tolerant than that of the EU.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I have all the software options and my post was based on first-hand experience. The lane change aborts are due to the regulation timing requirements. It'll happen if nearly 5 seconds are used after indicating begins before a viable lane switch is detected and acted upon. I had to take control to un-do the lane revert just this Thursday afternoon on dual carriageway before an exit.

A stretch of A47 at 70 mph in lane 2 is sufficient to breach the regulation limits. Though I do wonder if that was a construction design fault or just that the UK highways agency's own technical specification is more tolerant than that of the EU.

It's a boring read but read the regulations

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R079r3e.pdf

If you can find where there is a time limit on lane change you've better eyes than me. Are you sure its the regulations and not Teslas implementation thats letting you down?

 

[Fursty Ferret]

It's a boring read but read the regulations

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R079r3e.pdf

If you can find where there is a time limit on lane change you've better eyes than me. Are you sure its the regulations and not Teslas implementation thats letting you down?

Wrong document. Try here:

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2020/R079r4am2e.pdf

It explains the time limits and has some diagrams.