Is it just me? The media keeps talking about the average price of electric cars being so high and unaffordable, yet the price of a basic Model 3 (which I'm sure we'll all agree is a great car) is now $36K. With a $7500 tax credit (and $2K more for NY residents), that's a $27K car. That's amazing to me. The 'average' price must include the high end performance vehicles or something. I feel that Tesla and the White House have led the way forward and I hope it continues with the 'promised' lower price lithium batteries in a couple years.
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Electric car costs
- Thread starter tg27
- Start date
I'd compare the Model 3 to something like a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. Those are low $20k. Without the tax credits they're more than $10,000 cheaper, or more than 30% cheaper than the cheapest Tesla. And I don't think a standard range Tesla is an entirely fair comparison.
A long range Model 3 is $46,000, but with power and features is more like a fully loaded Civic or Corolla, which is still only $25k to $30k.
The truth is, there's not an inexpensive EV currently because the most expensive thing is the battery. Leaving out all the 'fancy stuff' doesn't bring the price down enough to make it competitive. Battery prices will have to be cut in half before the up front cost is anywhere near the same.
BBUUUUUUUUUTT ...
The journalists are almost universally omitting operating costs. I now have over 86k miles on my Model Y. The only maintenance I've done is new tires and windshield wiper fluid. My price per mile is 1/3 that of a comparable gasoline car. I spend no time going somewhere to put energy into my vehicle on my daily routine. All of those things, for me, are well worth the increased upfront costs of an EV.
Unfortunately the vast majority of the population can't afford the upfront costs. And that is a legitimate problem right now for EVs.
A long range Model 3 is $46,000, but with power and features is more like a fully loaded Civic or Corolla, which is still only $25k to $30k.
The truth is, there's not an inexpensive EV currently because the most expensive thing is the battery. Leaving out all the 'fancy stuff' doesn't bring the price down enough to make it competitive. Battery prices will have to be cut in half before the up front cost is anywhere near the same.
BBUUUUUUUUUTT ...
The journalists are almost universally omitting operating costs. I now have over 86k miles on my Model Y. The only maintenance I've done is new tires and windshield wiper fluid. My price per mile is 1/3 that of a comparable gasoline car. I spend no time going somewhere to put energy into my vehicle on my daily routine. All of those things, for me, are well worth the increased upfront costs of an EV.
Unfortunately the vast majority of the population can't afford the upfront costs. And that is a legitimate problem right now for EVs.
Media ALWAYS has an agenda. Forums like these can reveal the realities of the marketplace.
While new buyers rejoice in the remarkably low net prices of Teslas, those that purchased prior to the rebates complain about their lower resale values.
Those who purchased earlier, often had much lower financing costs that partially offset the current lower pricing.
The World marketplace for so many products have gone woogie. Things that used to be cheap, now cost more, and some previously expensive things have come way down in price.
While new buyers rejoice in the remarkably low net prices of Teslas, those that purchased prior to the rebates complain about their lower resale values.
Those who purchased earlier, often had much lower financing costs that partially offset the current lower pricing.
The World marketplace for so many products have gone woogie. Things that used to be cheap, now cost more, and some previously expensive things have come way down in price.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
But almost anyone buying a new car in the US can. The average new car transaction price in the US was $48,000 in September.
A new Model 3 can be had for under $30k. Even a new Model Y can easily be had for well under the average.
“They’re too expensive” is just not a particularly valid argument these days.
I also find the Corolla/Civic comparison to be false/misleading. The Model 3 has more interior volume (112 cu ft) than a Camry (100 cu ft), let alone a Corolla (88 cu ft).
Averages are blown out of proportion by a few people buying very expensive cars. One person's $100,000 car is bringing the average up for four people's $22,000 car. And there are a LOT of expensive Cadillacs, Lexus, Mercedes, etc, on the road. Saying the average new car sales price is $48,000 completely ignores that people are buying $22,000 cars. Civics and Corolla sales combine to about half a million cars a year. That's half a million people that couldn't buy an EV.
If the argument is "there are no affordable EVs", you can't compare them to actually similarly useful vehicles. You have to compare them to what are considered to be "affordable cars". And there are no EVs that compare to those cars.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I can't find any reliable numbers but I doubt the median is substantially different than the mean in this case. 500k sounds like "a lot" until you consider that 17+ million cars are sold in the US every year.
Again, this just isn't true.
With the tax credit a Chevy Bolt can be had for under $20,000, less than a Corolla with similar utility. A Model 3 can be had for under $30,000, which is more or less exactly equivalent to the volume trims of a Toyota Camry, the most directly comparable car. A new Model Y can be had for ~$34,000, a few thousand more than the volume trim level of a RAV4.
All of those are before operating costs are considered. In December 2023 there are available affordable electric cars at any definition of "affordable" when talking about a new car.
Yes, the temporary demise of the Bolt will limit EV availability at the very bottom rung of the new car market in 2024. But the general premise that the "vast majority of the population can't afford the up-front costs" is simply not true (at least if we're scoping "the population" to people considering a new car in the first place).
It depends on how one views it. The base M3 is relatively affordable with tax credits, the costs are more tire changes and insurance costs are usually higher, charging cost and locations ... not everyone has a house to install a home charger and may not live near a super charger, and if the person is usually buying second hand ICE cars that's less than 15K, then the EVs will be out of reach for them. I have plenty of friends made less than 30k a year or 60k as family, often with higher priority expenses ..., to them it is hard.
Closer to 13 million rather than 17 million. USA - Flash report, Automotive sales volume, 2022 - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal
And my half million examples are from two manufacturers. That doesn't include some 25 other models of car that are from $15k to $25k totaling more than a million more sales. All those people can't afford a $34,000 Tesla.
It does not make any difference that there are cars being sold for the same price as a Tesla. If there are people buying new cars who can't afford a $34,000 car, then by definition it's not affordable, and that's the only definition of affordable that matters.
And furthermore, your original statement was "The media keeps talking about the average price of electric cars being so high and unaffordable", which is referencing the average cost, not the double discounted price of the already cheapest available.
EVs are still too expensive for a huge number of people. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with reporting it. It's true, but it's also mundane journalism because we should all know that information without anyone having to tell us. Or at least I thought so, but apparently people do need to be informed.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
2022 was of course an anomaly given supply chain and other post-pandemic issues. The “normal year” average has been at or near 17 million for over 20 years excepting the financial crisis and pandemic. 2023 numbers are projected to rebound substantially to ~15.5M.
U.S. light vehicle sales 1976-2023 | Statista
US light vehicle sales neared 14 million in 2022, including light truck and car sales. Light vehicle sales by year in the US have fluctuated in recent years.
www.statista.com
You have fabricated this conclusion with no evidence. What I ultimately buy is not intrinsically linked with what I can afford, and the definition of “afford” is certainly up for debate in this scenario given operating costs, incentives, etc.
Because you’ve decided it’s the only definition that matters to make the point you choose to make? Sorry, no. The great majority of people buying new cars can afford an EV, because EVs are available at nearly every price point in the market. Full stop.
I said nothing resembling that.
New cars are still too expensive for a huge number of people. It has nothing to do with EVs.
We can agree to disagree and leave it there. I can’t say the same thing over and over any more or less than you can.
dbeiler
Member
Where are you getting this 112 cu ft number from? A model 3 has less than 100 cu ft of passenger volume. A Camry is definitely larger. A Model 3 is almost exactly the same size as a Civic. 97 cubic ft vs 96 cubic ft of passenger volume. Model 3 starts at $38,990 vs identically sized Civic at $23,950.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
I got the EPA numbers from Edmunds.
2023 Tesla Model 3 Base Specs & Features | Edmunds
Detailed specs and features for the 2023 Tesla Model 3 Base including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.
www.edmunds.com
2023 Toyota Camry LE Specs & Features | Edmunds
Detailed specs and features for the 2023 Toyota Camry LE including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.
www.edmunds.com
Although Edmunds quotes the Camry at 115 cubic feet, not 110 like I said before.
Civic EPA volume listed as 111 cubic feet, so I agree they’re roughly the same size. Camry is indeed slightly larger.
2023 Honda Civic EX Specs & Features | Edmunds
Detailed specs and features for the 2023 Honda Civic EX including dimensions, horsepower, engine, capacity, fuel economy, transmission, engine type, cylinders, drivetrain and more.
www.edmunds.com
fholbert
Active Member
Of people who can afford to buy new cars, a lot of them don’t qualify for the $7,500 tax credit. $300k isn’t that much of an annual income.
That‘s really not true of all the media. The ones that seemed to have an agenda are finding that’s an expensive thing to do with settled and upcoming law suits as high as $2B. What would you know without the media?
That’s true. Even with the rebate there are dozens of car makes and models that compete with the lower priced M3 and MY. Many of them are hybrid models getting north of 45 miles to the gallon. These cars have a nicer, quieter and more comfortable ride. These models have much cheaper insurance, cheaper repair bills, longer warranty. I can’t imagine having a repair bill over $20k for new high voltage batteries.
There are at least two reports in Canada where the Hyundai Ioniq owners ran over something and scratched/minor damaged the battery shield, the cars are still drivable and no error codes ever reported. Both took it to the dealer in abundance of cautions. Hyundai dealer obviously has no experience on repair and the cost and labor is quoted are CAN 60k - more than the car itself, resulting in insurance write off. The corporate Hyundai is dancing around it. This indicates the lack of experience on fixing the HV system or worse - the lack of reporting/sensing mechanisms. Tesla obviously has more experience than the others in this area.
While EV has a lower fuel and maintenance costs but there are other costs that are easily overlooked. Insurance, tires, high costs of repair after insurance expired, higher fender bender repair costs, skill sets on repairs, lower resale value after few years.
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