Double vision (ghosting) at night through windshield?

[DSTAR]

Here's the latest. Perhaps final... for now. I sent the following note to my SC:

I have attempted to take pictures of the issue with my DSLR. That's proving difficult at night given the lighting conditions and movement, so I will need to take another shot at that over this weekend. In the meantime, as I am still quite frustrated. Perhaps you could help me get some answer to more pointed questions from engineering. Specifically:

• You have referred to your position on issues with Model X windshields and your current investigation. However, you have not made any specific comments regarding the Model S windshields. Please state your official position with respect to the ghosting issue relative to Model S windshields, and your plans to investigate and address those issues. The following questions pertain to Model S windshields specifically.
• You have mentioned there is a difference in how drivers perceive the optical ghosting issue. What information do you have pertaining the optical/physical issue (not the individual perception of such)?
• Are you aware of notable differences in the optical characteristic among Model S windshields of the current generation? Are some windshields exhibiting a higher degree of ghosting than others? What is the distribution of the severity of the optical issue across the investigated cases? In other words, are there some windshields with a severe variant of the issue and some with a mild variant, and if so, what is the ratio?
• What steps are you taking with respect to investigation Model S windshield ghosting issues? What is the plan or approach for resolving customers with either a severe case of the optical issue, or a high sensitivity to the issue?
• Do you have specific cases where a windshield replacement resolved this issue for a Model S owner, as confirmed by your testing and the owner? If so, can you share data with respect to the portion of customers that were satisfied with the resolution of this specific issue?

The response from the SC is this:

I have given you all the information the powers to be told me to give.

We did try to resolve 1 Model S and after 2 windshields, the customer said it was worse than the first. So we are not doing any repairs at all until we are assured a repair is available.​

In other words, I am told that there is nothing more to be done, and there is no further information they are willing to give me. There has been no reply to my further request to pass my questions along to engineering.

As an FYI, I am on a shorter side (5'8") and keep my seat fairly high up. I guess I'll be looking into Photosync next. So frustrating.

 

[wanaxnow]

No, I have a TS (MS) 90D and have this issue. I had my windshield replaced, which made the issue worse.

Ugh sorry to hear that happened. I almost wonder if I wasn't cognizant of this matter if it would have ever really bothered me? I just seem to look for it all times now.

 

[Super_Popular]

I sat in an X last week in a show room and notice the ghosting. However the person I was with did not so I am not sure its a nighttime thing. I also noticed it during my daytime test drive. I do wear readers and sit higher up on the seat, the rep said it mainly came from the height. I am getting an X for a few hours on Friday so I will report back.

 

[vandacca]

Sorry to hear about your issues and frustrations @DSTAR. Since the windshields come from a 3rd party manufacturer, it sounds like Tesla has to work with external sources to figure this out, which will take longer. It could be a problem during manufacturing, shipping and/or storage. Until this 3rd party manufacturer figures out what's causing the ghosting and changes their processing, it's a crap-shoot to get windshields replaced.

The only solution IMHO is to wait for Tesla and their windshield supplier to figure this out. It may take a few months, but once they do, they will be able to guarantee a replacement will resolve your issue.

 

[idoco]

Speculation on my part...polarized tinting will be offered as a solution if they can't otherwise fix the problem.

 

[vandacca]

I'm getting older and my eyes have developed their own "ghosting" issues. Doesn't normally bother me during the day, but at night it's more bothersome. Optician gave me a very mild prescription glasses to address it, which also happen to be polarized. So, I usually wear these glasses at night when I drive, so I hope that it will resolve all issues for me.

You may want to consider getting a pair of night glasses (e.g. with a light yellow/red tint) with a polarized film. Might be cheaper?

 

[DSTAR]

Sorry to hear about your issues and frustrations @DSTAR. Since the windshields come from a 3rd party manufacturer, it sounds like Tesla has to work with external sources to figure this out, which will take longer. It could be a problem during manufacturing, shipping and/or storage. Until this 3rd party manufacturer figures out what's causing the ghosting and changes their processing, it's a crap-shoot to get windshields replaced.

The only solution IMHO is to wait for Tesla and their windshield supplier to figure this out. It may take a few months, but once they do, they will be able to guarantee a replacement will resolve your issue.

Thanks, @vandacca. I expect you are right. Just wish they'd be a little more forthcoming with their responses.

 

[radams]

I've put around 2,300 miles on my Model X and just thought I'd chime in about this "issue". Have I noticed any ghosting of headlights in the distance at night? Yes. Is it annoying? Yeah, perhaps a bit at first. Is it a safety issue? Are you kidding? That's like saying that any car on the road that has marker lights above or below the main headlights presents a safety hazard to every other car on the road that they drive toward at night. Anyone who is convinced that this is a serious safety issue please explain to me how lights far away in the distance that are, frankly, more visible that normal would cause me to get into an accident. I saw this same issue with my wife's Prius but never considered it news worthy. I'd like to believe that I'm a typical Tesla owner but perhaps I'm not nit-picky enough. On that note, my X is perfect... no issues at all.

 

[EV-lutioin]

We just received our X90D 3 weeks ago and can see the ghosting effect. Has anyone successfully made the case to have had their windshield replaced for this situation? I contacted our service center and the first response was adjusting the height of my seating position. I feel it would be a long drawn out conversation with them to even consider making that change for us.

My MX is at the SC today getting its windshield replaced due to ghosting. When I told them the issue, they ordered a new windshield for me and a couple weeks later they picked up my car and gave me a MS loaner. Great service! I hope the new windshield solves the ghosting problem. I will keep you posted.

 

[EV-lutioin]

I'm not sure there is good evidence that a replacement windshield will fix the problem as I haven't heard of anyone who can see this problem not seeing it in another windshield. Nor have I heard of a person who can see the ghost images taking a look out of someone's car who does not see the images to report back if they see a difference. The "bubble" distortions mentioned above have been fixed in manufacture, but I haven't heard of anything being done to fix the ghost image issue yet even though many reports of the issue have been given to SCs now.

Some people can see it and some can't... in the same car? I haven't heard that one before. I can say with certainty that 100% of the people who have been in my MX have seen the ghosting clearly... I pretty sure it is a mechanical thing, not a personal thing. I do know your sight line can make a difference, in my car if your eyes are just above dashboard level then there is no ghosting, but at regular mid-windshield level everyone can see it.

 

[Colby Boles]

I've put around 2,300 miles on my Model X and just thought I'd chime in about this "issue". Have I noticed any ghosting of headlights in the distance at night? Yes. Is it annoying? Yeah, perhaps a bit at first. Is it a safety issue? Are you kidding? That's like saying that any car on the road that has marker lights above or below the main headlights presents a safety hazard to every other car on the road that they drive toward at night. Anyone who is convinced that this is a serious safety issue please explain to me how lights far away in the distance that are, frankly, more visible that normal would cause me to get into an accident. I saw this same issue with my wife's Prius but never considered it news worthy. I'd like to believe that I'm a typical Tesla owner but perhaps I'm not nit-picky enough. On that note, my X is perfect... no issues at all.

Light is a linear system - this isn't only happening at night - it is happening all of the time. It is easier to see at night because the contrast ratio between a light source and the black background is very high, which means that the additional internal reflections that make up the "ghost images" can be attenuated significantly but still be easily visible. I agree that at night this is annoying, but liveable. I can see the multiple images even during the daytime, most easily on bright specular reflections on cars (again high contrast ratio), and more subtly as multiple images of the rooflines of cars and other features. I have never noticed this issue on any other car I have driven over the last 30 years or so. I noticed it within minutes of leaving the Fremont factory with my car. The net effect is that it feels like I have double vision or other eyesight problems when looking out the front, which makes for a very fatiguing driving experience. It becomes more obvious when you look at a side window or step out of the car and realize that everything is clearly focused again.

 

[Colby Boles]

Some people can see it and some can't... in the same car? I haven't heard that one before. I can say with certainty that 100% of the people who have been in my MX have seen the ghosting clearly... I pretty sure it is a mechanical thing, not a personal thing. I do know your sight line can make a difference, in my car if your eyes are just above dashboard level then there is no ghosting, but at regular mid-windshield level everyone can see it.

Yes it is an optical thing which is appears to behaving just as one would expect with a low slope windshield that becomes almost horizontal at its apex (i.e the problem gets worse the higher up your eye level is). My theory is that this is a fundamental design problem that is present in all of the vehicles due to the geometry and thickness of the windshield. Some explanations for why some people see it and some do not can be: polarized sunglasses (which could attenuate the additional reflections), and less than perfect eyesight (which would limit your ability to see the lower contrast ghosts above the background light levels of the blurring of one's vision), and eye level when seated. A lot of people wear sunglasses which might also explain why most people describe this problem as a night issue (when they are not wearing them). I'm still eager to hear of someone getting a replacement windshield and declaring that the issue is now gone. If that happens I will try to get mine replaced ASAP.

 

[FA1820]

Light is a linear system - this isn't only happening at night - it is happening all of the time. It is easier to see at night because the contrast ratio between a light source and the black background is very high, which means that the additional internal reflections that make up the "ghost images" can be attenuated significantly but still be easily visible. I agree that at night this is annoying, but liveable. I can see the multiple images even during the daytime, most easily on bright specular reflections on cars (again high contrast ratio), and more subtly as multiple images of the rooflines of cars and other features. I have never noticed this issue on any other car I have driven over the last 30 years or so. I noticed it within minutes of leaving the Fremont factory with my car. The net effect is that it feels like I have double vision or other eyesight problems when looking out the front, which makes for a very fatiguing driving experience. It becomes more obvious when you look at a side window or step out of the car and realize that everything is clearly focused again.

@ Colby Boles, you are experiencing what I was experiencing. The irregularities within the windshweild cause the eye fatigue that makes things look a bit blurry and and in my scenario would cause a headache within 10 mins behind the wheel. Bad enough that I stopped driving the car for about a month that it took Tesla to install a new windshield. I had decided that if that level of light reflection / refraction and ghosting was considered the new normal then my model X was going back. Also, it was equally bad in day and night and my polarized sunglasses helped just a bit but not much.

If this describes your situation to the point that you actually find it unsafe (not just annoying) then I strongly suggest you request a widnsheild replacement. Your new windshield will still have ghosting, just not to the degree that will make it unsafe. I'd say the difference will be like day and night, assuming they make sure you do not end up with the wrong batch that you got to begin with.

 

[Colby Boles]

I must have missed you saying this before - so you are saying you got a replacement windshield that reduced the multiple images issue? Also I want to separate this from the other issue I have head about but have not seen which is a regional distortion issue that the SC described to me where people experienced "bubble" like effects in different parts. I don't see any regional effects like this - my windshield seems pretty consistent, other than the eye height related variation in how widely the ghost images spread.

I have a SC appointment 8 weeks (!) out to look at FWD that is afraid of closing, so I might see if they can address this too.

@ Colby Boles, you are experiencing what I was experiencing. The irregularities within the windshweild cause the eye fatigue that makes things look a bit blurry and and in my scenario would cause a headache within 10 mins behind the wheel. Bad enough that I stopped driving the car for about a month that it took Tesla to install a new windshield. I had decided that if that level of light reflection / refraction and ghosting was considered the new normal then my model X was going back. Also, it was equally bad in day and night and my polarized sunglasses helped just a bit but not much.

If this describes your situation to the point that you actually find it unsafe (not just annoying) then I strongly suggest you request a widnsheild replacement. Your new windshield will still have ghosting, just not to the degree that will make it unsafe. I'd say the difference will be like day and night, assuming they make sure you do not end up with the wrong batch that you got to begin with.

 

[FA1820]

@Colby Boles, yes, that is correct. My original windshield was from the A series batch which in my case was defective. I am not saying all of the A batch windshields were defective, just that mine was. In order to reduce the chance of installing another defective windshield, most likely due to lack of effective QC process to identify the defective ones, they ordered a windshield from the B batch. I didn't look for bubbles, as that was noted way pass the time I got my new windshield, but the original windshield showed the ghosting/double/triple vision effect all over te windshield. It did not stop a foot above the dash as people reported here. The new one is most likely what others have, ghosting to a degree but not distracting at all and unsafe.
I have driven other 2016 model S cars and they also have the same ghosting issue but not at the level of my original windshield. The problem is that the effect is invisible (unlike cracks on windshield or in my case, I don't recall bubbles) when I looked at the car so it was impossible to detect it unless you drove it for about 5-10 mins.

 

[Colby Boles]

@Colby Boles, yes, that is correct. My original windshield was from the A series batch which in my case was defective. I am not saying all of the A batch windshields were defective, just that mine was. In order to reduce the chance of installing another defective windshield, most likely due to lack of effective QC process to identify the defective ones, they ordered a windshield from the B batch. I didn't look for bubbles, as that was noted way pass the time I got my new windshield, but the original windshield showed the ghosting/double/triple vision effect all over te windshield. It did not stop a foot above the dash as people reported here. The new one is most likely what others have, ghosting to a degree but not distracting at all and unsafe.
I have driven other 2016 model S cars and they also have the same ghosting issue but not at the level of my original windshield. The problem is that the effect is invisible (unlike cracks on windshield or in my case, I don't recall bubbles) when I looked at the car so it was impossible to detect it unless you drove it for about 5-10 mins.

OK - good to know. By "bubble" I don't mean literal air bubbles in the windshield, but regional thickness variations (probably in the the PVB interlayer) causing optical distortions (e.g. pincushioning) depending on where one looked out of the windshield. Even though I took delivery on 5/23, my car was stalled in production for quite a while for various reasons, so it's quite possible it has and A windshield. I was supposed to take delivery of the P90D before 3/30 but they weren't able to pull it off.

I have noticed the ghosting in a 2016 Model S P90D loaner as well, but the vertical spread of the ghosts was much less. I do wonder if the lower seating position in the S also helps with this.

 

[EV-lutioin]

So, I got my MX back today from the Service Center and they replaced the windshield and..... drum roll please....
The ghosting is worse with the new windshield!! Before it was annoying and now it seems downright dangerous, before is was mostly an issue with bright lights, now it is an issue with every light, before it was triple images, now it is quadruple and quintuple images. Argh..
I am so appreciative of the excellent service Tesla provided; the SC did not complain, they trailered my car to the SC 2 hrs away they gave me a MS loaner and they completed the work quickly, so I am happy about that, but they need to get that Peruvian windshield company to fix their product because with every new MX they make a new flawed windshield is put on the road.

 

[electricity]

I've put around 2,300 miles on my Model X and just thought I'd chime in about this "issue". Have I noticed any ghosting of headlights in the distance at night? Yes. Is it annoying? Yeah, perhaps a bit at first. Is it a safety issue? Are you kidding? That's like saying that any car on the road that has marker lights above or below the main headlights presents a safety hazard to every other car on the road that they drive toward at night. Anyone who is convinced that this is a serious safety issue please explain to me how lights far away in the distance that are, frankly, more visible that normal would cause me to get into an accident. I saw this same issue with my wife's Prius but never considered it news worthy. I'd like to believe that I'm a typical Tesla owner but perhaps I'm not nit-picky enough. On that note, my X is perfect... no issues at all.

Its a safety issue because it makes some of us dizzy.

 

[vandacca]

So, I got my MX back today from the Service Center and they replaced the windshield and..... drum roll please....
The ghosting is worse with the new windshield!! Before it was annoying and now it seems downright dangerous, before is was mostly an issue with bright lights, now it is an issue with every light, before it was triple images, now it is quadruple and quintuple images. Argh..
I am so appreciative of the excellent service Tesla provided; the SC did not complain, they trailered my car to the SC 2 hrs away they gave me a MS loaner and they completed the work quickly, so I am happy about that, but they need to get that Peruvian windshield company to fix their product because with every new MX they make a new flawed windshield is put on the road.

This is exactly why Tesla does not want to replace these windshields until they (and their manufacturer) finish their root-cause analysis on this issue. Anyone with ghosting should just wait patiently until this is all sorted out (probably at least 4-6 months from now).

Each windshield is manufactured in a custom built line, and issues can crop up anywhere during the manufacturing process, storage and/or delivery. Furthermore, each windshield style is unique, so while a 2016 VW Jetta windshield has no issues during storage and delivery, a 2016 Model-X windshield will warp in the exact same delivery channel. Check out this video on how windshields are made.

If every windshield had this exact problem, it would be easy to figure this out. But because the issue varies significantly from windshield to windshield, it's a lot more difficult to figure out when and where the problem develops. It could be something in manufacturing, something in storage, something during courier delivery, something during storage in Fremont, or a combination of a few of the above (e.g. a manufacturing defect, that doesn't show up unless the windshield is stored in a certain way).

Give Tesla some time. Have faith in Tesla. If I were having this issue, I wouldn't want a solution until it's been vetted by Tesla and verified by a few customers. Total waste of my time to be the one experimenting on solutions.

 

[Chickenlittle]

ghosts must be like vampires and not show up on film. only picture/video of this is from a toyota. can someone post an example from a model x.