David Noland suggests Model S pedal placement is a safety hazard

[Haggy]

What is the rational behind that? I Drive with no shoes all the time and can't imagine why it would be more dangerous than with shoes. Actually I think it's safer cause I can feel the pedal and can control speed better with my toes.

It's what's called a urban myth, although I'm sure people have heard it in rural places too. There are no US states that have such a law. There's no federal law. Yet I was told it when growing up. "Everybody" knows it's illegal, except it's not.

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Just went out and tried to do it. I just simply pick up the front of my foot and rotate it towards break and couldn't do it. I used two feet and pushed accelerator first then brake and car stopped. If your foot slips off the brake and onto accelerator so not full pressure on break you will creep forward but get the alert. I simply don't see this as a problem but others do. Not sure what Tesla could do about this though.

Since the accelerator pedal is not mechanical, they could make it so that if the foot is on the brake, the accelerator pedal has no effect, but that would be a problem for anybody who wants to hold the car with the brake pedal and then accelerate. Then again, that's what hill mode is for. It would also be possible for it to depend on the speed and circumstances. If the vehicle is at a stop, it might make sense to let the accelerator work even with the foot on the brake. But the car should know when it's coming to a stop and when it's irrational to think that the person wants to accelerate while stopping. In most circumstances when the foot is on the brake and the car is moving, I can't see why a person would want to have the car accelerate. The exception would be right after driving through a large puddle and flooding the brakes, but I don't know if that's been a significant problem ever since drum brakes gave way to disk brakes. Ultimately, it could come down to user preference and it would be easy to be able to change modes with the touch of a finger.

 

[PeterK]

Since the accelerator pedal is not mechanical, they could make it so that if the foot is on the brake, the accelerator pedal has no effect, but that would be a problem for anybody who wants to hold the car with the brake pedal and then accelerate. Then again, that's what hill mode is for. It would also be possible for it to depend on the speed and circumstances. If the vehicle is at a stop, it might make sense to let the accelerator work even with the foot on the brake. But the car should know when it's coming to a stop and when it's irrational to think that the person wants to accelerate while stopping. In most circumstances when the foot is on the brake and the car is moving, I can't see why a person would want to have the car accelerate. The exception would be right after driving through a large puddle and flooding the brakes, but I don't know if that's been a significant problem ever since drum brakes gave way to disk brakes. Ultimately, it could come down to user preference and it would be easy to be able to change modes with the touch of a finger.

Here's how Nissan does it (on ICE cars - not sure about the Leaf as this predates it):

From Brake Override Technology | Nissan Innovation Labs
How it works

When the vehicle is moving, if both the brake and accelerator pedals are being pressed at the same time, the brakes take precedence. They override accelerator input. Engine power is actually reduced by the system and the brakes are better able to do their job.

This intuitive technology is designed to work only when it is necessary. It does not engage during low-speed maneuvers like when you are on a steep incline or trying to gain traction on slippery surfaces.

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[tomas]

As a coda to this discussion: While my car was in for 2nd annual service, I drove new loaner MS with the electromechanical brake update. Pedal placement was fixed. Brake travel when fully applied was a good inch above plane of accelerator - making it virtually impossible to have the unnerving can't-finish-braking issue many of us have reported. So, again the MS going forward is improved.

Coincidentally, I checked brakes on my car after the annual service - at which they refreshed the brake fluid. Much better brake travel... fully applied brakes are maybe 1/4" above plane of accelerator. This proves (to me anyway) that for older cars without the new braking system, this is a progressive issue that will only occur every other year as the brake fluid ages.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

As a coda to this discussion: While my car was in for 2nd annual service, I drove new loaner MS with the electromechanical brake update. Pedal placement was fixed. Brake travel when fully applied was a good inch above plane of accelerator - making it virtually impossible to have the unnerving can't-finish-braking issue many of us have reported. So, again the MS going forward is improved.

Coincidentally, I checked brakes on my car after the annual service - at which they refreshed the brake fluid. Much better brake travel... fully applied brakes are maybe 1/4" above plane of accelerator. This proves (to me anyway) that for older cars without the new braking system, this is a progressive issue that will only occur every other year as the brake fluid ages.

I think pedals were changed early last year/ shortly after most of the posts in this thread. I hated the new placement in my loaner last spring compared to my 2012 car

 

[tomas]

I think pedals were changed early last year/ shortly after most of the posts in this thread. I hated the new placement in my loaner last spring compared to my 2012 car

Ah well, can never please everybody! Another reason to stick with our vintage 2012 P95s though. Me, I've got obsolete P, obsolete Brown, obsolete lacewood, and now obsolete "racing" pedals.

 

[harry]

@tomas,

I think your observations are correct. Our brake pedal depresses BELOW the level of the accelerator pedal with moderate braking (very early build). It is the vertical distance (or lack thereof) between the two pedals which has caused the problem several times in our case. The power is reduced somewhat, but the car still moves forward. The thing is, when you apply the brakes it's usually because you need to stop. The time it takes to reposition your foot can equate to a lot of feet (sorry for the pun) traveled in that time. There is a warning, but the elapsed time is still disconcerting in the best of circumstances, and potentially tragic if you run over your child while repositioning.

For those who maintain that the power is in fact cut off when the brake pedal is pressed before the accelerator, that is simply not true, at least for our car

 

[PeterK]

@tomas,

I think your observations are correct. Our brake pedal depresses BELOW the level of the accelerator pedal with moderate braking (very early build). It is the vertical distance (or lack thereof) between the two pedals which has caused the problem several times in our case. The power is reduced somewhat, but the car still moves forward. The thing is, when you apply the brakes it's usually because you need to stop. The time it takes to reposition your foot can equate to a lot of feet (sorry for the pun) traveled in that time. There is a warning, but the elapsed time is still disconcerting in the best of circumstances, and potentially tragic if you run over your child while repositioning.

For those who maintain that the power is in fact cut off when the brake pedal is pressed before the accelerator, that is simply not true, at least for our car

@tomas, @harry,
Thank you both for your observations. My car turned two years old last month. About a year ago I rear-ended someone when highway traffic stopped suddenly and my car wouldn't stop fast enough. I contacted Tesla afterwards and they pulled the logs which showed that the accelerator was pushed after the brake pedal, so the motor was competing at reduced power with the brakes - and at the time I don't think it even gave a warning, though it definitely does now. I might not have had time to stop fully anyway, but I certainly would have done less damage to my car (the F-250 I hit had $500 of damage to the bumper, but his tow ball went through my nose cone and smashed some expensive things - and he hit the van in front of him for a $500 dent in the back door).

Last week I drove a rental 2014 Dodge Challenger with 14K miles while my Model S was again in the body shop (someone threw open their driver's door as I passed, denting my rear passenger door). I immediately noticed the difference in brake travel. When pushed fully, the brake was still above the gas pedal, however getting back in my S yesterday I can push the brake well past the accelerator pedal plane. Clearly in my accident my foot was not properly positioned (I think in part due to one-pedal driving), but the close pedals, excessive brake pedal travel and lack of accelerator cut-off when braking were contributors.

I have my annual service in two weeks, so hope I get the reduced travel effect you did after the brake fluid change, Tomas.

 

[tomas]

@Peter

Very sorry to hear this happened to you. I hope you conveyed clearly to Tesla, as I really think they should provide a retrofit to those who request. After all, soon after this was first reported, they changed the pedal placement to adjust.

I have not checked recently, but I suspect the brake fluid change is only a temporary fix. I'm still planning to 3D print a 1/2" 'booster' to clip over pedal. I guess I'll need to get to work on that!