Cybertruck towing discussion

[kylinblue]

Evident from the real world towing experience of Model X/F150L/R1T owners, the range penalty from towing with (light-duty) EV is near or exceed 50%. I am pondering the possibilities of reducing this penalty in preparation of the launch of CB. Besides charging faster, more often, and increase internal battery size, what practical ideas do you have?
(I will try editing this post as I or other users find out more info. For now this will be a framework lacking details.)

• External power source
  • Charging while vehicle in motion? In bed / at hitch HV connection?
  • Battery pack
  • Generator
  • Solar
• Trailer with E-Axle (patent already filed by GM)
  • https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/03/gm-files-patent-for-tow-assist-system/
• Aerodynamic modifier
  • Truck bed mounted
  • Trailer mounted
• Other information
  • Air drag created by currently available trailers cause 50% range reduction while 1500 lbs of payload on F-150 Lightning only resulted in less than 5% range reduction (link to video). So loading a ton of extra equipment (weight) for the purpose of extending the range should work? Such as carrying external battery.

 

[scottf200]

Why Teslas Are Bad At Towing (Today)​

 

[israndy]

It's also possible that building a trailer that takes advantage of the size of the CyberTruck to closely mate to it like the Semi wraps around the trailer it's pulling will. But it is just true, getting the most MPG requires going slow, it starts at 25MPH and gets crazy fast when you are pulling something big and not aerodynamic. It'll be interesting to see what the best trailer shape turns out to be. Give me a stainless steel Tipoon camper trailer. Or even a Kimbo made custom for the CT...

Airstream has built an example eTrailer, battery back there that not only propels the axel, but regens while slowing and can drive the appliances in the trailer including A/C Heat Pump, and of course you can recharge it at a car charger or campsite. Would be a drag if they went with CCS and you towed with a Tesla, have to drop off the trailer to charge and then drive to the Supercharger to charge full speed at each charging stop.

 

[FLRifleman]

Adding portable battery capacity to a truck bed will consume payload capacity in a major way. Adding battery capacity to a trailer will likely increase the tongue weight, also affecting payload, in addition to less stuff which you can put in the trailer. In both cases, adding $20k in batteries which will also degrade with time, will require replacement, and won’t be used daily makes little sense to me.

A diesel generator in the bed to provide extra energy makes a lot more sense than batteries, and weighs less, however that with the fuel will also decrease available payload, and needs to be factored in. You’ll also need to be able to get it in and out.

But the best solution is to simply choose the right tool for your job. If you do long distance towing, just buy a gas or diesel truck. Multi-car families can own the best of both worlds.

 

[GSP]

My thinking for travel trailers is along the lines of:

0) Pick an aerodynamic shape, like an airstream or a molded fiberglass trailer
1) Minimize width and frontal area
2) Take advantage of minimal width by not using mirror extensions on the tow vehicle
3) Select a single axle trailer instead of dual axle, if possible, to reduce rolling resistance
4) Install LLR (low rolling resistance) tires on the trailer
5) Install "Moon type" aerodynamic wheel covers on the trailer wheels
6) Install removable wheel spats to cover the trailer wheels.
7) If underside of trailer is not smooth, make modifications to improve
8) Minimize and reduce size of protrusions, lowering frontal area and also improving Cd. Example: low-profile A/C, or rear mounted A/C or no A/C.
9) Other ideas as they come along

GSP

 

[tashtibet]

I can see the excitement but make sure it's a realistic one. Many years ago one of my co workers bought a Ram 3500 and brag that he can haul a house. After 5 years I check on him and he'd not haul or tow nothing instead he paid quite a lot of money putting a sign that says, 'Sport' on his truck. Some people never grow up.

 

[kylinblue]

Adding portable battery capacity to a truck bed will consume payload capacity in a major way. Adding battery capacity to a trailer will likely increase the tongue weight, also affecting payload, in addition to less stuff which you can put in the trailer. In both cases, adding $20k in batteries which will also degrade with time, will require replacement, and won’t be used daily makes little sense to me.

A diesel generator in the bed to provide extra energy makes a lot more sense than batteries, and weighs less, however that with the fuel will also decrease available payload, and needs to be factored in. You’ll also need to be able to get it in and out.

But the best solution is to simply choose the right tool for your job. If you do long distance towing, just buy a gas or diesel truck. Multi-car families can own the best of both worlds.

Pickup is sensitive with payload, but not as bad with towing capacity. F-150 Lightning (currently) has 10,000 lbs of conventional towing capacity. If a high power bidirectional port exists in the bed of F-150L, this would already be game changing. To make this "extreme" example, we sacrifice 4000lbs of capacity to put a LFP battery pack of 167kwh on the trailer, then we will still have 6000lbs of towing capacity which is still a decent capacity. Said battery pack already exists commercially, and I am using APX 186.3H-S1 by Growatt as an example. Granted this is prohibitively expensive.

Then we consider ICE generator, which is A LOT more energy dense and compact. Take MLG20IF4 by Generac for example, which has an operational weight south of 2000lbs. I am being generous since it also include the weight of the trailer carrying it and some change. With 40 gal of diesel capacity allowing it to run more than 24 hours (31 hours 75% load). If you somehow manage to package this on to a load carrying trailer, you will end up with a 8000lbs towing capacity F-150 Lightning that can go... really far.

Extension: currently many 1/2-3 ton truck owners are complaining how EPA is choking their diesel engines to death. I am seeing an opportunity here that CB augmented by various means of range extender could be a possible alternative for the lower end of this need.

 

[kylinblue]

It appears I cannot edit my first post in this thread?

Anyways I would like to clarify this thread is slightly different from the similarly named Towing with Cybertruck. Our intention here is to "make it work" with current or near future technologies.

 

[kylinblue]

I can see the excitement but make sure it's a realistic one. Many years ago one of my co workers bought a Ram 3500 and brag that he can haul a house. After 5 years I check on him and he'd not haul or tow nothing instead he paid quite a lot of money putting a sign that says, 'Sport' on his truck. Some people never grow up.

I am doing some preliminary research on starting a freight service business that has the eventual electrification of the fleet in mind. If all goes well I will procure 3/4 ton trucks and I promise you they are for doing work.

 

[FLRifleman]

...
Then we consider ICE generator, which is A LOT more energy dense and compact. Take MLG20IF4 by Generac for example, which has an operational weight south of 2000lbs. I am being generous since it also include the weight of the trailer carrying it and some change. With 40 gal of diesel capacity allowing it to run more than 24 hours (31 hours 75% load). If you somehow manage to package this on to a load carrying trailer, you will end up with a 8000lbs towing capacity F-150 Lightning that can go... really far.
...

Another plus for the generator route is it provides unlimited backup power in case of outages & natural disasters. I like things that serve multiple purposes, extending the utility, and stretching your dollars. In my region given the high heat and humidity, you would want a generator for the trailer anyway to power the AC.

 

[kylinblue]

Does anyone have an idea how this guy wired the generator up to the battery?

 

[Ogre]

My thinking for travel trailers is along the lines of:

0) Pick an aerodynamic shape, like an airstream or a molded fiberglass trailer
1) Minimize width and frontal area
2) Take advantage of minimal width by not using mirror extensions on the tow vehicle
3) Select a single axle trailer instead of dual axle, if possible, to reduce rolling resistance
4) Install LLR (low rolling resistance) tires on the trailer
5) Install "Moon type" aerodynamic wheel covers on the trailer wheels
6) Install removable wheel spats to cover the trailer wheels.
7) If underside of trailer is not smooth, make modifications to improve
8) Minimize and reduce size of protrusions, lowering frontal area and also improving Cd. Example: low-profile A/C, or rear mounted A/C or no A/C.
9) Other ideas as they come along

GSP

You forgot step -1

-1) Buy the smallest trailer/ camper you can possibly get away with using.

Reconsider your needs. Maybe you really don't need the headache of pulling a 34 foot mini-house behind your truck.

 

[Ogre]

Does anyone have an idea how this guy wired the generator up to the battery?

Not sure, but I have heard some people have had success with tapping into their regenerative braking wiring.

 

[ThomasD]

By the time Heavy Duty Light Trucks are electric hopefully there will be lots of large pull through charging stations. People are not going to want to down jack a Gooseneck or 5th wheel Trailer with hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of equipment on it and leave the Trailer someplace so they can charge. Nor will someone want to unhook their livestock or Horse Trailer to charge. The range while towing heavy loads will be very low. I'm interested in seeing the range GM will have with their electric Truck that will be able to tow 20,000 lbs that is supposed to come out in the next couple of years.

 

[israndy]

It'll be interesting to see, hopefully when the Semi moves outta the Modesto Sacramento area we'll start to see truck stops for charging that the pickups towing a 40-footer can use instead of trying to fit into a charger in front of a Starbucks. The same is true for gas stations, there are a lotta them that you can't pull into with a trailer, but there are just SO MANY that you can no one cares.

Tesla already said that the charger for the Semi will be compatible with the CyberTruck, not sure if that is good for CTs or BAD for the Semis, Charin is talking about pumping 3.7MW outta the MCS, while the NACS is only capable of 1MW. What will the future hold??

 

[Ogre]

Tesla already said that the charger for the Semi will be compatible with the CyberTruck, not sure if that is good for CTs or BAD for the Semis, Charin is talking about pumping 3.7MW outta the MCS, while the NACS is only capable of 1MW. What will the future hold??

This does not appear to be the case.

Tesla is using similar technology and 1000v charging, but the actual adaptor is different because the Semi needs about 4x as much power delivered. The Cybertruck will have a connector which is compatible with existing Superchargers (The NACS standard) while the Semi has a separate connector.

Cybertruck will charge around 650 kW, Semi will charge at around 2,000 kW.

 

[israndy]

Getting your figures from where?

I was referring to the Semi delivery event:

Tesla Semi Delivery Event

Learn more: https://www.tesla.com/semi

www.youtube.com

Speaking of v4 Megawatt charging "This is key for high power applications like semi" "It's gonna be used for the CT too"

 

[kylinblue]

It'll be interesting to see, hopefully when the Semi moves outta the Modesto Sacramento area we'll start to see truck stops for charging that the pickups towing a 40-footer can use instead of trying to fit into a charger in front of a Starbucks. The same is true for gas stations, there are a lotta them that you can't pull into with a trailer, but there are just SO MANY that you can no one cares.

Tesla already said that the charger for the Semi will be compatible with the CyberTruck, not sure if that is good for CTs or BAD for the Semis, Charin is talking about pumping 3.7MW outta the MCS, while the NACS is only capable of 1MW. What will the future hold??

Assuming 800v, 900A you’d be looking at 0.72MW… for now

https://tesla-cdn.thron.com/static/HXVNIC_North_American_Charging_Standard_Technical_Specification_TS-0023666_HFTPKZ.pdf

 

[kylinblue]

Imo for heavier than half ton truck application, a bidirectional HV connection should be available on the back of the heavy duty vehicle, and allow energy flow while the vehicle is in motion. This should be done as soon as possible by the vehicle manufacturer. This would open up for all kinds of range extending applications.

 

[israndy]

Can't you just get a Hybrid? I have seen them out there