CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[miimura]

No, non-export simply means your system is designed that as a net it doesn't export to the grid, except for very short transients (the length allowed will be defined by your local utility). However, your inverter can still be grid tied (and thus still have a grid connection).
PG&E has an explanation as an example:
Non-Export

Off-grid means the solar system is never connected to the grid at any point in time. That means even if you use a grid-tie inverter (that you can keep "awake" by using a compatible battery inverter), it must be isolated from the grid, such that at no point in time is there ever a connection to the grid. There are multiple ways to achieve this:
1) The solar system powers loads (which can be a subset of your total loads) that are disconnected from the grid completely. This is the typical definition of off grid and what off-grid inverters are for.
2) Have a manual transfer switch (like the ones you use for generators) to switch to grid power manually when your solar/battery system stops generating power.
3) Have an automatic transfer switch (ATS) that automatically switches the loads to the grid when your solar/battery system stops generating power.
4) Have a hybrid inverter that has a built in ATS that can achieve this function.

The goal is simply to move your solar off-grid (making NEM completely irrelevant), you don't need to move your whole house off-grid.

I have a Fronius Primo grid-tie inverter myself, and it's compatible with Victron Quattro or MultiPlus inverters, such that I can not only add low voltage energy storage to my system, it also has a built in ATS that allows it to function as a "microgrid" which is backed up by either the grid or a generator.
MicroGrid & backup systems for grid independence

In this configuration, at no point is the grid tie inverter connected to the grid, the grid only functions as a backup when the batteries are low.

5) Have a grid connected battery charger automatically maintain the off-grid battery bank at a minimum SOC when solar falls short.

 

[Zabe]

Fascinating to watch a bunch of capitalist wanting to invest and produce their own power from solar, turning into being a bunch of socialists wanting the government to take over the electric grid all due to having some extra fees proposed 15 years down the road.

 

[Zorg]

IOUs are paid on a cost plus basis, so they have zero interest in lowering cost as it would lower their profit.

 

[holeydonut]

Fascinating to watch a bunch of capitalist wanting to invest and produce their own power from solar, turning into being a bunch of socialists wanting the government to take over the electric grid all due to having some extra fees proposed 15 years down the road.

Lol yeah I think having the government take over energy is probably a step to far. I just want them to stop this monopoly BS.

I want to see what innovative DER solutions companies can come up with if they were allowed the opportunity to enter the foray in California. Like, I want to see this in California. Not because it's Tesla... but just because it's something different and innovative.

Tesla Powerpacks power new 'community battery' project; 'a big Powerwall for neighborhoods'

Tesla has deployed new Powerpacks near Sydney, Australia, to serve as a new “community battery” for the neighborhood. Over the...

electrek.co

With options comes pressure to perform. If competitors could fashion a community scale process or do what Roseville is doing (but with the option to expand)... you'll see rates come down and reliability go up through competition. Without competition, all you have is a bunch of IOUs making BS arguments to secure more money. The IOU's want the conversation to be around having homeowners pay more; not around having the IOU's spend less.

 

[getakey]

we know exactly how much the Grid costs. Its the fee charged on top of CCA generating costs

 

[Zorg]

And that is why we all need the grid.

Yes, but it sure ain't worth $8/KW of solar panel. And the more solar plus storage, the less we need the grid (overall). The flaw in the CPUC argument is that it doesn't value the service provided by residential solar/storage to the overall grid.

Side note, I had read somewhere that somebody had figured out that the cheapest way to increase renewable energy is overbuild solar panels so as to have enough in the winter (or something along those lines).

 

[Vines]

Fascinating to watch a bunch of capitalist wanting to invest and produce their own power from solar, turning into being a bunch of socialists wanting the government to take over the electric grid all due to having some extra fees proposed 15 years down the road.

Swing and a miss!

You do realize that the socialism boogeyman doesn't scare many people when it's so overused and often incorrectly.

The grid is a common shared resource and so people have a common interest that it is managed properly. Managed 10% returns to the IOU after costs simply do not give any incentive to the IOU's to do smart efficient business. That is the core of this problem, where as other industries have competition and are required to stay reasonably efficient.

These fees are not being proposed 15 years from now, they are being proposed this year. As of now our current trajectory shows we will not hit our 2035 climate goals until about 2051. Rooftop solar is a big part of our climate action plan, it takes up otherwise wasted space, and is located right at the source of the consumption.

 

[Zabe]

Swing and a miss!

You do realize that the socialism boogeyman doesn't scare many people when it's so overused and often incorrectly.

The grid is a common shared resource and so people have a common interest that it is managed properly. Managed 10% returns to the IOU after costs simply do not give any incentive to the IOU's to do smart efficient business. That is the core of this problem, where as other industries have competition and are required to stay reasonably efficient.

These fees are not being proposed 15 years from now, they are being proposed this year. As of now our current trajectory shows we will not hit our 2035 climate goals until about 2051. Rooftop solar is a big part of our climate action plan, it takes up otherwise wasted space, and is located right at the source of the consumption.

Strike Three!

I used the socialism term correctly. I did not make it the boogeyman. I just pointed out how funny it is watching you all go all Government takeover of the means of production, distribution and the exchange when it comes to electricity. All because you are all poopooing having to pay some increased costs at some point in the future. ROFL funny, but by all means continue defending taking over the grid from a publicly traded company.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Swing and a miss!

You do realize that the socialism boogeyman doesn't scare many people when it's so overused and often incorrectly.

The grid is a common shared resource and so people have a common interest that it is managed properly. Managed 10% returns to the IOU after costs simply do not give any incentive to the IOU's to do smart efficient business. That is the core of this problem, where as other industries have competition and are required to stay reasonably efficient.

These fees are not being proposed 15 years from now, they are being proposed this year. As of now our current trajectory shows we will not hit our 2035 climate goals until about 2051. Rooftop solar is a big part of our climate action plan, it takes up otherwise wasted space, and is located right at the source of the consumption.

Right, NEM 3.0 can go into effect immediately after the vote and start affecting people immediately, not 15 years down the line. It will affect new solar owners immediately that connect after the change. For grandfathered NEM/NEM 2.0 owners the clock started when they connected their systems, not now (it also is a violation of the 20 years that they signed for previously, although that's a different point). That means for owners that had systems connected 15 years ago it starts immediately for them also (and they lose 5 years of their agreement).

The only people who get 15 years are people that had systems connected right before it is passed, which is a very small minority of the people complaining about NEM 3.0. The talk about 15 years is a strawman.

 

[ucmndd]

Strike Three!

I used the socialism term correctly. I did not make it the boogeyman. I just pointed out how funny it is watching you all go all Government takeover of the means of production, distribution and the exchange when it comes to electricity. All because you are all poopooing having to pay some increased costs at some point in the future. ROFL funny, but by all means continue defending taking over the grid from a publicly traded company.

I think I’m the only one that has directly posted an opinion with a favorable view of a socialist/government-controlled grid in this thread. I’m quite fine with my position being in the minority.

Nor do I find your characterization of individual rooftop solar as a purely capitalist pursuit to pass the smell test. In fact I’d suggest a majority of us here are passionate about this subject in no small part due to the common good benefit of clean energy.

 

[h2ofun]

Yes, you'd need a good bit of storage to get you through the winter, period. Or, backup generator.
Not sure 200% is enough to charge all those batteries in the winter.

Not even close!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[h2ofun]

Great news! Sorry if it was posted before.

It looks like the decision that was proposed for a vote on January 27 is not on the published schedule for the CPUC. This is a good sign that the pressure is working, and our voices are being heard!

Those of you who protested called the governor, and wrote public comments thank you so much! Please keep it up!

From what I hear this pushes back the drop dead date of NEM 2.0 a bit, assuming my information is correct.

I am more concerned about the 8 bucks per kw

 

[Vines]

I am more concerned about the 8 bucks per kw

The undertone is that the decision needs to be revised, otherwise, why delay the vote?

I agree that the drop dead date isn't as much a deal as the final decision, but the exciting part is that they aren't just passing it as proposed.

 

[ohmman]

The undertone is that the decision needs to be revised, otherwise, why delay the vote?

I agree that the drop dead date isn't as much a deal as the final decision, but the exciting part is that they aren't just passing it as proposed.

The drop dead date push (assuming that’s really a plausible result) can also give homeowners like me a little more time to upgrade our systems into NEM 2.0 for grandfathering.

 

[holeydonut]

The undertone is that the decision needs to be revised, otherwise, why delay the vote?

I agree that the drop dead date isn't as much a deal as the final decision, but the exciting part is that they aren't just passing it as proposed.

It could have just been delayed since all 5 CPUC commissioners couldn’t make the previous meeting on Jan 16 for oral arguments. But yeah, any delay to approving that NEM 3 PD is a good thing.

 

[sunwarriors]

I think the hardest sell is how can the utilities communicate to everyone that their rates need to go up by some base grid support rate? With how power pricing is structured where not everyone is paying to support the grid (little power users pay so little) and high users moving to solar because, obvious reasons with volumetric pricing would be paying more.

Assuming there are 15% solar owners in CA, it's hard for them to tell the other 85% utility non-solar customers and the 15% solar customers (those will go up too), your cost just went up by $10-$20 because you need to pay to support the grid.

This was my guess as to why they probably targeted the smaller % of solar owners and played the class warfare card even though solar owners income median is going down over the years:

Inside Clean Energy: The Rooftop Solar Income Gap Is (Slowly) Shrinking - Inside Climate News

One of the most common arguments against subsidizing rooftop solar is that the benefits mostly go to affluent households that don’t need any help. But the reality is that the declining costs of rooftop solar, along with access to solar leasing and other financing methods, are helping to reduce...

insideclimatenews.org

"Among households that added solar in 2019, 21 percent had incomes that were below 80 percent of their “area median income,” a threshold often used to define low income, the report said. The share of solar adopters in this income category continues to rise."

Obviously, low income people don't own homes nor EVs so there is certainly some 'floor' of assets/income to what a solar owner would be at since a renter isn't going to spend $25k to put solar on a place they rent.

I think they really just need to bite the bullet and tack on some fee to everyone. I think most water costs already does this and seems to be less of a conflict issue since using no water is already like half your bill I've noticed.

I'd still like to see more competition/options where communities can do their solar/battery/storage (like that AUS article) or even own the powerlines, etc...Similar to Internet competition, no competition means they can do whatever they want and aren't responsible for mistakes/waste since people have no other choice, they're stuck.

 

[h2ofun]

Was thinking about the comments of solar size to go off grid. My solar is maybe 500% compared to usage now. In peak I can get 185kwh in a day. In winter, I have days a 5kwh. And with electric heat, I use maybe 30 to 50kwh per day. So anyone who thinks they can go off grid, with heat pumps, just had no idea the facts

 

[sunwarriors]

Was thinking about the comments of solar size to go off grid. My solar is maybe 500% compared to usage now. In peak I can get 185kwh in a day. In winter, I have days a 5kwh. And with electric heat, I use maybe 30 to 50kwh per day. So anyone who thinks they can go off grid, with heat pumps, just had no idea the facts

I think truely off grid, you can't depend on the solar at all since you're limiting yourself to 1 energy generation source.

If I were to try to go off-grid, I'd get a NG generator (line already connected to the house) hooked up to my system, get a massive propane tank that you see in those winter cabins for heat, hook up some windmill deal (I think someone posted a link of something a few days ago from some article), another old school generator that runs on diesel/normal gas since your utlity might get hosed, and maybe even those wood burning stoves.

Oversizing solar and batteries alone seems like a waste of $$ IMO. All your eggs in 1 basket and you get an apocalypic fire and smoke will block all sun (say a nuke from North Korea). Course, this varies based on Nor Cal vs So Cal. There is a lot more sun in So Cal (last few days, I had 15-20kWh which is enough mostly to fully recharge batteries).

Having everything at your house/on your property is the way to go as well since going out to get fuel could be problematic (roads down as we saw in Placer County a few weeks back).

Off-grid is a fun thought exercise.

 

[Vines]

The drop dead date push (assuming that’s really a plausible result) can also give homeowners like me a little more time to upgrade our systems into NEM 2.0 for grandfathering.

Same with me. I see this coming and am really pushing hard to get another 6 kW installed on my roof after the PW project is complete and PTO is given. With any luck, at least I can avoid the worst of NEM 3.0 for some number of years.

 

[ohmman]

Same with me. I see this coming and am really pushing hard to get another 6 kW installed on my roof after the PW project is complete and PTO is given. With any luck, at least I can avoid the worst of NEM 3.0 for some number of years.

And by the time grandfathering is up, there ought to be some non-export and other inventive solutions available in the market for us to assess/adopt.