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Thank you, but unfortunately that stops a the Delta variant. I would like to see Omicron and later, since those are the variants with the significant shift from LRI to URI type infection.
I asked my wife if she is still seeing a lot of arrhythmia related to COVID. She said it's difficult to tell now since so many have had COVID, and a few more than once, so there is no way for her to tell if a variant is responsible or it was a non-COVID related occurence of cardiac disease. It was very apparent in the beginning because the numbers, especially of afib were enormous. Things haven't slowed down but they aren't increasing either. Mostly there aren't a lot of COVID cases in her hospital, even though our county has been in the red for quite a while in regard to infections.
 
Spot on! Unfortunately this message has been lost on the lay public. I'm sure you have heard so many times "I got the vaccine, but I still got COVID."

My response has always been - "but you are still alive and healthy, that's the point of the vaccine."
"Well, I spent a month in the ICU, but when I came out, my immunity lasted 3 months longer than it would have had I been vaccinated! So there!"
 
Once again the UK is early. This is a different vaccine than what will be approved in the US, which will likely be approved and available far too late since that is how we roll and for some reason they are apparently going to check efficacy on the US booster candidate (which is targeted at BA.4/BA.5 rather than BA.1). Hopefully I am wrong about that and they just roll out with it as soon as volume is available and basic safety checks are done.

The UK vaccine is the one that Pfizer and Moderna said could be ready in 100 days, back in December 2021.

 
I'm not clear on the logic of including the vaccine which targets the original since everyone, (everyone likely getting the booster), has already had multiple vaccinations against it.
My understanding is that they are actually not going to change the composition of the primary series in the US. Will still be Wuhan. Yes, not many people left to get it of course.

There is some evidence that Wuhan followed by Omicron leads to a broader immune response than Omicron alone.

For the boosters: There is always the possibility of resurgence of a strain related to that original strain if people are not further protected against it, so this is a way to do that and ensure continued protection against Omicron does not suffer. It may also provide better protection against future unknown strains than the Omicron variant vaccine, since the old strain spike seems to be a bit more immunogenic for whatever reason.

I think it is a combination of what efficacy data is available (for the full series), making sure to do something for which data exists, and just contingency planning.

As near as I can tell from FDA docs, their plan is to:
1) Release BA.4/BA.5 vaccine without efficacy data.
2) Use BA.1 trial data as proxy.
3) Get BA.4/BA.5 efficacy data via trial, going forward, so that there is good information on this. But does not gate release.

Hopefully this means September actually is possible but we’ll see. Lots of talk about it being in limited supply and not being available to general population, only elderly, but my guess is that will not be an issue and they’ll have a hard time getting people to get it.
 
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I think some more states have switched to epi reporting even for cases, so there always seems to be a big drop in the most recent 10 days or so. The 7 day average yesterday, August 7, was 81k. Let's see if it's still 81k in a week or two.
Aug 15 the 7 day is 77,632
CDC is showing all metrics as lower for the last 7 days. Hospitalizations down 4.4% Deaths down 4.9%

lol one week is not a trend. Thats just laughable. Look at the bigger picture and everything has been going up fir the last 90 days.
Hospitalizations down another 2.6% deaths down another 6.7%
 
The 7 day average yesterday, August 7, was 81k. Let's see if it's still 81k in a week or two.
The 7 day average for August 7 is now 114k. It grew 23k in a little over a week due to epi curve reporting by some states. It will probably hit 120k next week.
Aug 15 the 7 day is 77,632
Yes, almost the same level as the day-behind value last week. Will it also reach 115-120k? We'll have to wait a couple weeks and see.
 
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A study using BCG vaccine to prevent Covid in type 1 diabetics had good results, and may have broad spectrum effects.


  • We report on our randomized trial of multi-dose BCG for protection against COVID-19
  • BCG is safe and has 92% efficacy versus placebo against COVID-19
  • Findings also suggest platform protection against additional infectious diseases
  • Efficacy takes 1-2 years to manifest, but the protection may last decades

The results were dramatic: only one — or slightly more than 1 percent — of the 96 people who had received the B.C.G. doses developed Covid, compared with six — or 12.5 percent — of the 48 participants who received dummy shots.

Although the trial was relatively small, “the results are as dramatic as for the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA vaccines,” said Dr. Denise Faustman, the study’s lead author and director of immunobiology at Massachusetts General Hospital.
 
Dr. Jha says boosters will be available mid-September for all. Three weeks or so. With caveats on FDA approval.



FDA process:


Typical Dr. Offit quote here…(also was not supportive of booster 1 or 2)

Moving fast and breaking things this time! Finally!

This would be a three-month turn (though of course they are using data from a much longer iteration for Omicron BA.1).

Get your vaccine in September, find out how well it works in October.
 
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Moving fast and breaking things this time! Finally!
Seriously. +1. The entire benefit of mRNA vaccines having quick turnaround time for updated RNA sequences is squandered if your policy is set by people who say things like "but if we're going to use a vaccine for the current strain instead of a six-month-old strain, we have to have proof with human tests that it will be better" which then means that by the time it gets approved, it's a six-month-old strain.

The shortsightedness of some folks is amazing, and their ability to make the same mistake over and over is... well, appalling.

A vaccine will *always* be more effective if it is a better match for the circulating strain, and no one can predict what strain the circulating strain in six months will be closest to. So the best answer is always going to be to stay current.
 
Seriously. +1. The entire benefit of mRNA vaccines having quick turnaround time for updated RNA sequences is squandered if your policy is set by people who say things like "but if we're going to use a vaccine for the current strain instead of a six-month-old strain, we have to have proof with human tests that it will be better" which then means that by the time it gets approved, it's a six-month-old strain.

The shortsightedness of some folks is amazing, and their ability to make the same mistake over and over is... well, appalling.

A vaccine will *always* be more effective if it is a better match for the circulating strain, and no one can predict what strain the circulating strain in six months will be closest to. So the best answer is always going to be to stay current.

Yes . . . but you need to be cautious about the above, and it is far to blanket a statement.

I have personally seen how what are expectedly "small" changes to a genetic sequence can cause some very un-expected consequences. It is proper, and nothing less should be expected, that EVERY new sequence change to mRNA vaccines be thoroughly tested through clinical trials until there is a far longer established track record than we have currently, like the changes we use for the annual flu vaccine. This is a very new technology, and I 100% guarantee you that we don't know everything about it that we think we do.


No one here could have predicted that the relatively minor (sometimes single point mutations) that occurred would have changed SARS-CoV-2 from a deadly lower-respiratory pathogen (pneumonia) with high blood-clotting potential to what we see now in Omicron - a pretty mild-by-comparison upper-respiratory infection with an IFR that is rapidly approaching that of seasonal influenza.

Decades ago people building vaccines had some un-justified hubris and thought they could cure about anything with a vaccine. There are some very notable vaccine trials that resulted in many un-necessary deaths and life-long disability, and that happened simply because biological systems are FAR FAR more complex and have unforeseen interplay (biology LOVES to reuse components in seemingly bewildering ways) than any of those researchers could have predicted.

No, the FDA is spot on in proceeding with caution here.
 
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The entire benefit of mRNA vaccines having quick turnaround time for updated RNA sequences is squandered if your policy is set by people who say things like "but if we're going to use a vaccine for the current strain instead of a six-month-old strain, we have to have proof with human tests that it will be better" which then means that by the time it gets approved, it's a six-month-old strain.

No, the FDA is spot on in proceeding with caution here.

It’s tricky. (And also it looks like they aren’t proceeding with their typical caution - curious how the vote will go.)

I do think they are still doing all the safety related checks here - it is just the efficacy results that they are not going to have.

So the question to me seems to be how to communicate that effectively. I don’t think there is a safety issue. This version of the vaccine hasn’t been rushed - all the manufacturing has been checked thoroughly, and they’ve done human trials (I guess this would be phase 1?) to make sure the vaccine is highly likely to be safe. And they’ve started efficacy trials too.

But we won’t know how efficacious it will be. My guess is that it will be 80% effective (infection) or so. Not like the original vaccine. I think they should make that clear to people - give their best estimate of efficacy and say that the full efficacy results will not be available for a couple months, even though it has been safety checked. And they should contrast that with ~30% efficacy (infection) for the older vaccine. Just be as open as possible about what is going on and what to expect.

They also need to mention to people that it may well be necessary to get two doses of this vaccine (another in 4-5 months) if you haven’t had Omicron before - I have seen analysis that suggests that may be needed for optimal protection.


a pretty mild-by-comparison upper-respiratory infection with an IFR that is rapidly approaching that of seasonal influenza.
While this IFR may be true (still seems similar to a severe flu), it’s a bit misleading, because to date there is no evidence that we will ever get to the much lower disease burden of influenza, due to differences in transmissibility and immune waning. I hope we do get there, and I still think we will get to a better place, maybe after this winter, but with the same IFR if we consistently have 5x as many cases annually, it’s kind of a big deal still. It looks like we’re basically setting up to have 150k deaths a year in perpetuity (like I said I believe this is transitory but I haven’t seen evidence yet to support my belief). That is considerably worse than typical influenza.
 
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Yes . . . but you need to be cautious about the above, and it is far to blanket a statement.

I have personally seen how what are expectedly "small" changes to a genetic sequence can cause some very un-expected consequences. It is proper, and nothing less should be expected, that EVERY new sequence change to mRNA vaccines be thoroughly tested through clinical trials until there is a far longer established track record than we have currently, like the changes we use for the annual flu vaccine. This is a very new technology, and I 100% guarantee you that we don't know everything about it that we think we do.

mRNA is actually relatively simple. You have code for a protein and code that tells the cell machinery to transport it to the edge of the cell. Every sequence change we're talking about here is a change in the structure of the protein. So if you don't change the structure of the protein to match what's circulating, you're creating a vaccine that won't be as effective. If there were something interesting about the protein itself, you'd be hearing about new and interesting side effects from the virus itself. If you aren't, you can't possibly have new surprises from the vaccine, realistically.

No one here could have predicted that the relatively minor (sometimes single point mutations) that occurred would have changed SARS-CoV-2 from a deadly lower-respiratory pathogen (pneumonia) with high blood-clotting potential to what we see now in Omicron - a pretty mild-by-comparison upper-respiratory infection with an IFR that is rapidly approaching that of seasonal influenza.

Literally nothing in that sentence is correct.

First, every zoonotic virus that sticks around long-term eventually adapts itself to human physiology, and that almost always means getting less serious and more contagious. So pretty much anyone who knows anything about immunology could have predicted that those changes would happen, and did. Could they have predicted which specific mutations would cause that to happen? Maybe not. But the point above still holds — the vaccine produces part of the virus, and if the virus isn't doing something bad, then the vaccine won't, either. And the rest of the vaccine (the delivery part) is very well understood, so further testing is a waste.

Second, there's not really any indication that the blood clotting potential of COVID-19 has diminished. It likely produces fewer clots in the lungs, which means the clots are maybe less likely to be fatal, but that's a very different question.

Third, literally anyone even without a solid understanding of immunology could have told you that when almost everybody in the world has either gotten COVID or been vaccinated, the mortality rate would fall off a cliff. This is not the same thing as saying the virus is less deadly. To COVID-naïve individuals, the risk is likely not significantly less than it was in the delta wave.


Decades ago people building vaccines had some un-justified hubris and thought they could cure about anything with a vaccine. There are some very notable vaccine trials that resulted in many un-necessary deaths and live-long disability, and that happened simply because biological systems are FAR FAR more complex and have unforeseen interplay (biology LOVES to reuse components in seemingly bewildering ways) than any of those researchers could have predicted.

And again, the vaccine produces part of the virus. It would be very nearly impossible for the vaccine to have any effect that the virus doesn't. So from a safety perspective, further testing is useless at this point. The only reason people are pushing for human testing is to determine whether a vaccine against BA.4/BA.5 is more effective than a vaccine against BA.1 or the prime strain. If they were talking about eliminating the primary series, that might make sense, but as a booster, it's pretty silly.


No, the FDA is spot on in proceeding with caution here.
There's caution, and then there's paranoia. We should be on at least the third or fourth vaccine formulation by now. If they had done that (as very nearly ALL the immunology experts said they should), omicron likely wouldn't even exist now. Instead, their excessive caution led to a dramatically worse outcome for the entire world. So no, the FDA is most certainly NOT "spot on".
 
@dgatwood
Which one of us has an M.D.?
Which one of us has a Ph.D. in molecular biology?
Which one of us has worked with mRNA and siRNA for years in the lab?
Which one of us has LITERALLY built viruses (Adenoviruses)?
Which one of us has performed Emergency Authorized Experimental therapies on patients and worked through the FDA for approval on that? Literally an experimental therapy that saved lives.


You are out of your element here. It's the equivalent of you trying to give Elon engineering lessons on rocket design, simply because you completed a first year engineering course.




When I was using siRNA (which is mRNA, but used to suppress gene expression temporarily), the targeted gene that I was going for was suppressed, but what we DIDN'T know at the time was that the gene in question was post-transcriptionally modified and regulated other genes. Knocking that gene down had a host of un-expected consequences.


Your gross over-simplification of how these things work is telling. Here's a hint - it's NOT JUST the mRNA sequence that is important. It's the interplay of that sequence with the adjuvant agents within the vaccine (and this is NOT STATIC), as well as how that interacts with hosts.

The KEY FEATURE of mRNA vaccines is NOT the vaccine sequence itself. I've said this before, but it bears repeating: The KEY to these vaccines is the chemicals and lipids in them that allow for the mRNA sequences to be taken up by the cells in order to produce the target protein. The uptake of mRNA into cells is NOT a natural process under most circumstances. It has literally taken decades, and going from things like electroporation, to come up with the "secret sauce" that allows for cells to safely take up the mRNA sequence, without damaging the cell, and properly expressing that sequence before mRNAses in the cell rapidly degrade that sequence.

No, because this technology is so new, caution is ABSOLUTELY warranted.
 
When I was using siRNA (which is mRNA, but used to suppress gene expression temporarily), the targeted gene that I was going for was suppressed, but what we DIDN'T know at the time was that the gene in question was post-transcriptionally modified and regulated other genes. Knocking that gene down had a host of un-expected consequences.
Those aren't really that similar except that they both involve RNA sequences.

With siRNA, you're turning off gene sequences in a living being. That's just one step shy of actual gene editing, and the behavior depends on understanding how all of the genes of the person work.

With an mRNA vaccine, you're literally creating a strand of mRNA that constructs a single protein and delivers it to the cell membrane. It isn't modifying DNA, it isn't upregulating or downregulating anything. It's just building a protein and shoving it to the surface of a cell where the immune system can notice it. And it is self-destructing code; it gets torn down automatically when it runs out of junk codons and the stop codon goes away.


Your gross over-simplification of how these things work is telling. Here's a hint - it's NOT JUST the mRNA sequence that is important. It's the interplay of that sequence with the adjuvant agents within the vaccine (and this is NOT STATIC), as well as how that interacts with hosts.

None of the mRNA vaccines contain adjuvants. In fact, up until last month (Novavax), none of the vaccines approved for use in the U.S. contained adjuvants.


The KEY FEATURE of mRNA vaccines is NOT the vaccine sequence itself. I've said this before, but it bears repeating: The KEY to these vaccines is the chemicals and lipids in them that allow for the mRNA sequences to be taken up by the cells in order to produce the target protein.

Sure, that's what makes mRNA vaccines possible. But none of those parts are changing from one vaccine to the next. They've already done the work of proving that the delivery mechanism is safe and effective. What difference does it make if the payload codes for a newer version of that protein that has a few dozen differences at the binding site or wherever? You're still using the same delivery mechanism, and it either builds the protein correctly or it doesn't, and it either delivers it to the cell membrane or it doesn't, and the protein either produces an immune response or it doesn't, and it either springs open or it doesn't.

I mean, I guess there could be some subtle change that causes the 2-proline substitution to be less effective, but short of that, a protein construction payload is a protein construction payload. I'm really struggling to understand how that could not be the case, realistically speaking.

The uptake of mRNA into cells is NOT a natural process under most circumstances. It has literally taken decades, and going from things like electroporation, to come up with the "secret sauce" that allows for cells to safely take up the mRNA sequence, without damaging the cell, and properly expressing that sequence before mRNAses in the cell rapidly degrade that sequence.
Yes, and at this point, they've thoroughly proven that the envelope works and is safe. None of that has the slightest bearing on whether the payload in between those PEGylated lipids should be updated to match the currently circulating strain.
 
Then we will have to let time answer these questions. Fundamentally, I think you are oversimplifying the science and I don't agree with your conclusions. It's not what we know that worries me, it's what we haven't quantified and don't know yet that is the biggest concern. There has been some data, early and certainly not conclusive at this point, that in certain cell types we actually are seeing reverse transcription of the mRNA payload in human cell lines. There is little in vivo data to corroborate this at this time, and it could be a byproduct of just the cell lines being immortalized. But these cells don't have reverse transcriptase in them, so this is a very unexpected finding.
mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73/htm

(PNAS is no joke - for US scientists, it the tier right below Nobel Prize Winners)


Because the IFR is naturally coming down in SARS-CoV-2, which is expected as the virus mutates to become less deadly but more infective, the bar for a vaccine goes up, due to the risk / benefit ratio changing. THAT is what the FDA will consider most, the risk/benefit ratio, and they will likely do that in a stratified age manner (i.e. do they recommend the new sequence boosters for everyone, or just the most at-risk populations).
 
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