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Hi Auger,
My read on the situation (from 1000 miles away) is a little different. I think it may come down to how a non-EV user sees "filling up" via the outlet. If you think of this like you would a gas car, you wait till you are about empty, and then you fill up. A fill up would be about $0.15*85kWh = $12.75 plus $2.25 to recover the install cost gives you $15 per use. The install cost of $1000 would be recovered with about 500 uses, or at a rate of one a week, about 10 years. None of those number would seem out of line to anyone who doesn't own an EV.
Perhaps you should try to find something that you could use to illustrate that you will be using the outlet differently than a gas pump. Perhaps a cell phone, where you suggest that plugging in a charging a phone fully might only cost $1 (not correct, I know), but charging a person $1.25 every time they plug in the phone all day long is silly. Perhaps showing them by mileage how much energy you use. I'm not sure the best way, but it really sounds like more of a misunderstanding that a particular desire to screw you over (though I don't discount that).
Peter
(
My read on the situation (from 1000 miles away) is a little different. I think it may come down to how a non-EV user sees "filling up" via the outlet. If you think of this like you would a gas car, you wait till you are about empty, and then you fill up. A fill up would be about $0.15*85kWh = $12.75 plus $2.25 to recover the install cost gives you $15 per use. The install cost of $1000 would be recovered with about 500 uses, or at a rate of one a week, about 10 years. None of those number would seem out of line to anyone who doesn't own an EV.
Perhaps you should try to find something that you could use to illustrate that you will be using the outlet differently than a gas pump. Perhaps a cell phone, where you suggest that plugging in a charging a phone fully might only cost $1 (not correct, I know), but charging a person $1.25 every time they plug in the phone all day long is silly. Perhaps showing them by mileage how much energy you use. I'm not sure the best way, but it really sounds like more of a misunderstanding that a particular desire to screw you over (though I don't discount that).
Peter
(
That would be quite reasonable if it were the case. But half the fun of owning an EV is being able to wake up to a full "tank".
Perhaps a compromise would be to add an inexpensive meter like this one: EZ Read FM2S 200A 240V 3W Meter
Then everyone would be able to see actual energy used and it could be used to actually bill based on usage + some percentage to help recover infrastructure costs. Simply jot down the meter before/after each time you plug-in and un-plug.
dsm -- I didn't sign anything.
bluetinc -- You're right about one of the Board members anyway. He was explaining to me how it was a "gas station." I told him it was an amenity like any other.
drees -- The above person wants a meter so they can "gross it up," i.e., see how much they have to charge for electricity and to get their expenses back. I told him the math is easy whatever cost above power company rates times zero equals zero because I'm not paying it.
You're wasting another $200 for a meter because I'm flat out not paying for the installation, admin costs, or whatever. I already made that offer when they denied my request to install the outlet in my parking spot at my expense. I agreed to pay for the electricity. That's it. Otherwise, I'll just wait for the supercharger to be built down here later this year.
bluetinc -- You're right about one of the Board members anyway. He was explaining to me how it was a "gas station." I told him it was an amenity like any other.
drees -- The above person wants a meter so they can "gross it up," i.e., see how much they have to charge for electricity and to get their expenses back. I told him the math is easy whatever cost above power company rates times zero equals zero because I'm not paying it.
You're wasting another $200 for a meter because I'm flat out not paying for the installation, admin costs, or whatever. I already made that offer when they denied my request to install the outlet in my parking spot at my expense. I agreed to pay for the electricity. That's it. Otherwise, I'll just wait for the supercharger to be built down here later this year.
OR, maybe one wire with a positive alligator clip, one with a ground alligator clip, and you could shock them into the 21st century.
Seven7
Member
Unreal, condo boards, home owner associations, they are all elected by the residents, and can be overthrown by the people that elected them.
I'm with you on taking that stand. They already could have had no capital payout. The totally stupid thing is, they won't get any payback at all for the investment. Payback over 7 years is better than none at all. So hopefully you get that supercharger near you quicker than Canada! (Actually, I hope Canada gets ours quicker, but that's a whole different thing...
)Being the ass that I am, I would have said "great, thanks" and handed the associations president $15 and told him I was going to use it once, permanently. Then informed him that I would always have something plugged into it. I'm sure that arrangement would be quickly rejected, but, it would help expose the board for the idiots they are!
Seven7
Member
Elctrek
Darth Voltage
Maybe contact your local air quality control district if you have one... ours in California is pretty active in helping ev owners... they even give you a check after you purchase an ev. Maybe they can put a little pressure on the condo board...
As mentioned before, you have to treat the 'powers that be' for their actual IQ. Which is quite low, to everybody's loss, in almost all cases.
I ran a 230V extension cord from my condo's storage unit to my parking spot for trickle charging my Porsche. Of course they didn't allow that as a permanent situation, so I was 'forced' to install a 230V outlet for my private parking spot, 100% at my expense. I couldn't have been more happy to comply.
Then with the delivery of the Model S I 'upgraded' the 230V outlet to 400V 3-phase (just added another outlet for my other car, I said) without discussion.
Yes, I don't have the highest regard for the capabilities or intelligence of my condo management. But who cares, if I get what I need and they still feel emperor of the domain?
I ran a 230V extension cord from my condo's storage unit to my parking spot for trickle charging my Porsche. Of course they didn't allow that as a permanent situation, so I was 'forced' to install a 230V outlet for my private parking spot, 100% at my expense. I couldn't have been more happy to comply.
Then with the delivery of the Model S I 'upgraded' the 230V outlet to 400V 3-phase (just added another outlet for my other car, I said) without discussion.
Yes, I don't have the highest regard for the capabilities or intelligence of my condo management. But who cares, if I get what I need and they still feel emperor of the domain?
A week ago at the building manager's suggestion, I requested a meeting with the BoD President and the manager. The building manager is in the unfortunate position of being the only conduit to any Board member outside of the monthly meeting. If it happens, this will be the first (and last, as far as I'm concerned) meeting we've ever had; even though, I've volunteered for any meeting, question, or committee since Nov. The only time it ever gets discussed is in the monthly BoD meeting. Those discussions are brief because of the venue. The details should be worked out beforehand, obviously.
I was available all of this week--no meeting. For the meeting that may never happen, I have several pages of notes that I've prepared on lithium-ion batteries, EVs, electricity basics, and numbers of why the "per use" model is a complete failure in every way, which is why nobody uses it. After doing the math, it's even worse than I thought. For a full charge, a plug-in Prius driver would pay $15 (plus valet tip) for $0.40 of electricity per use. Even if they got the per use cost down to around what I actually use, it would still screw over plug-in drivers with small batteries--the vast majority. I won't agree to something that doesn't work for everybody. The first I ever heard of the "per use" proposal was at the last BoD meeting. The good news is the outlet availability will be excellent, I predict.
I'll give it another week or two, then I'll just email the manager the notes I've made since I've already spent several hours preparing them. I don't want to send them if we're going to have a meeting as they are mostly memory joggers for me (except for the numbers) and not fully explained concepts.
We'll see.
I was available all of this week--no meeting. For the meeting that may never happen, I have several pages of notes that I've prepared on lithium-ion batteries, EVs, electricity basics, and numbers of why the "per use" model is a complete failure in every way, which is why nobody uses it. After doing the math, it's even worse than I thought. For a full charge, a plug-in Prius driver would pay $15 (plus valet tip) for $0.40 of electricity per use. Even if they got the per use cost down to around what I actually use, it would still screw over plug-in drivers with small batteries--the vast majority. I won't agree to something that doesn't work for everybody. The first I ever heard of the "per use" proposal was at the last BoD meeting. The good news is the outlet availability will be excellent, I predict.
I'll give it another week or two, then I'll just email the manager the notes I've made since I've already spent several hours preparing them. I don't want to send them if we're going to have a meeting as they are mostly memory joggers for me (except for the numbers) and not fully explained concepts.
We'll see.
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Akikiki
A'-Lo-HA ! y'all
auguer,
So sorry to hear you are having these problems. I think Telsa Motors can help. Crazy as this sounds on the surface, I heard a few months back from a guy in CA that was having HOA problems getting permission. He reported that Tesla has a team of folks to assist owners with persuading HOA's. I am sorry, I don't know the team's leader or name of anyone, but I understand that Tesla does support these efforts. Please for yours and other FL owners call them and talk to someone until you get a no we don't. I wish I could tell you more.
Keep us posted on this, please.
I am in a town house in Hawaii. Yes the state as a law that insures Condo owners have the right. Because mine is inside my garage, I didn't need HOA permission.
So sorry to hear you are having these problems. I think Telsa Motors can help. Crazy as this sounds on the surface, I heard a few months back from a guy in CA that was having HOA problems getting permission. He reported that Tesla has a team of folks to assist owners with persuading HOA's. I am sorry, I don't know the team's leader or name of anyone, but I understand that Tesla does support these efforts. Please for yours and other FL owners call them and talk to someone until you get a no we don't. I wish I could tell you more.
Keep us posted on this, please.
I am in a town house in Hawaii. Yes the state as a law that insures Condo owners have the right. Because mine is inside my garage, I didn't need HOA permission.
As in the case of Hawaii, California has a law that requires Condo associations to bargain in good faith with Condo owners concerning the installation of charging equipment. Perhaps Tesla was using that law as leverage for the guy in California. Unfortunately we don't have a similar law here in Florida and I doubt that Tesla would have much influence.
Larry
I think you could talk to a lawyer and have a letter sent to the board threatening to sue them. There must be a consumer protection law they are violating. Charging an extortionate fee for electricity could be a possible subject or diminishing property value by not allowing modern transport technology could be another possible subject they could mention in the letter.
Here is a possible contact:
West Palm Beach Litigation Attorney :: Laura Manning-Hudson :: Palm Beach Condo Lawyer
Progressive Condo Associations Working to Accommodate Electric Cars - Florida HOA Lawyer Blog
They do arbitration too. Maybe they can negotiate a deal on your behalf.
Miami Arbitration Attorney :: Arbitrations & Mediations :: Boca Raton Mediation Lawyer
Here is a possible contact:
West Palm Beach Litigation Attorney :: Laura Manning-Hudson :: Palm Beach Condo Lawyer
Progressive Condo Associations Working to Accommodate Electric Cars - Florida HOA Lawyer Blog
They do arbitration too. Maybe they can negotiate a deal on your behalf.
Miami Arbitration Attorney :: Arbitrations & Mediations :: Boca Raton Mediation Lawyer
Going to a lawyer knowledgeable in both Condo association law and electric vehicle charging issues is an excellent suggestion.
However, I think if there was a possibility of a violation of a consumer protection law, that Ms. Manning-Hudson would have mentioned it in her blog article.
Larry
I feel for you auger. I think the steps you have taken in this, showing patience (exemplary patience), remaining businesslike, not rolling over with the ridiculous outcome, are right on.
The problem with getting lawyers involved, very quickly one could spend 5 years' worth of those idiotic charging fees.
However, my wife and I totally believe in a particular saying: "What goes around comes around". Your persistence is great, and someday, somehow, their star will fall and yours will rise. At least you're driving a Model S; that's got to be a good feeling!
The problem with getting lawyers involved, very quickly one could spend 5 years' worth of those idiotic charging fees.
However, my wife and I totally believe in a particular saying: "What goes around comes around". Your persistence is great, and someday, somehow, their star will fall and yours will rise. At least you're driving a Model S; that's got to be a good feeling!
The blog post is not about extortionate electricity fees which is the case for the OP. In fact the blog post mentions a $34 per month solution which would increase the chance to build up a strong case against extortionate fees. If the OP charges every day he would have to pay 30*15=$450. That is 13 times the amount you pay in another condo in Florida. There must be some consumer protection law against this. In the US there was a lawsuit against a cable TV company that charged $200 for a TV show you could watch for $5 with a streaming service and the compliant won that case. I think you can only charge a comparable rate for the same service.
I found something to that affect in Canadian consumer protection law:
Consumer Protection Act, 2002, S.O. 2002, c. 30, Sched. A
Also I wasn't suggesting there might be an actual violation. I don't know that even though to me it looks like there is. I was suggesting that a letter mentioning a possible violation would do the trick.
I found something to that affect in Canadian consumer protection law:
Consumer Protection Act, 2002, S.O. 2002, c. 30, Sched. A
Also I wasn't suggesting there might be an actual violation. I don't know that even though to me it looks like there is. I was suggesting that a letter mentioning a possible violation would do the trick.
