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#2,262
beeeerock said:
I don't for a minute dispute democracy as being the best political system attempted on the planet. Nothing comes close (so far), except perhaps a benevolent dictatorship... but benevolent dictators are few and far between...

The root problem with democracy, bluntly, is that it attracts politicians. Frankly, they're the last people we need running society! The only way to mitigate the damage they do is to recognize that they're exactly like diapers - they should be changed often, and for the same reason.

They work under the motto of 'never underestimate the stupidity of the masses'. The masses never let them down.

If there was a way to elect people who had useful skills (science, economics, management etc), instead of people who are personable, corruptable and good at gaining trust, we'd be much better off.
Click to expand...

Democracy doesn't require politicians, that's just the way it's been done up til now because we didn't have the communications network necessary to have a functioning representative democracy without a stand in for groups of people. I would imagine we'll rise up and remove all House members, one by one at first then in large swaths, until we have nothing but polling of actual citizens to decide what passes "the House". Two senators from each state and that's it.
 
#2,264
Got this email last night from 350.org. It looks like we have a new number for PPM of CO2........

Friends,Every once in a while I let myself be optimistic for a minute, and this week is one of those times. I never get too giddy -- scientists said yesterday that the earth's atmosphere had nudged above 404 ppm CO2 for the first time in millions of years -- but recent events convince me it’s worth keeping up the fight long term. Which we can do, with your help.
It’s not because President Obama is talking about climate. The speech he gave today was fine, but talk goes just so far -- and we’re still waiting for him to say the words that really count: “I’ve denied the permit for Keystone XL.”
No, it’s other things.
The amazing rise of the divestment movement, for instance -- so far this spring there have been sit-ins from Swarthmore to Tulane to Colorado. (Just today, Tufts University students started another sit-in!) I spent last week in Harvard Yard, some of it in a sleeping bag, where students, faculty and alumni came together for a whole week to demand that the university finally divest from fossil fuels. And it's the same all over the world: just read the daily coverage in The Guardian, which has worked with 350.org to send 200,000 messages to the world’s biggest charities calling for divestment.
Something similar is happening wherever a new coal mine or fracking well is proposed -- right now people are fighting hard to keep Shell’s oil rigs out of Seattle, to persuade banks everywhere not to fund Australia’s largest coal mine. Scotland, Wales and Tasmania, have banned fracking so far this year -- and this week the beer drinkers of Britain added their voice to the campaign!
And while we hold the fossil fuel industry at bay -- well, the world is changing. Every month the price of a solar panel drops another percent or two, and that means that the planet is now installing more renewable capacity than new coal, oil, and gas. Countries like Bangladesh are on the way to having solar panels on every home by decade’s end. The economics are breaking our way.
The bad guys know that, of course, so they’re banning state regulators from talking about climate change, and fighting for things like the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, which would give them new tools to fight off serious climate action. The Koch Brothers alone have pledged to spend $900 million in the next election, which guarantees more ignorance and resistance to action in Washington.
We don’t need $900 million.
We have things they don’t, like data. Also passion, spirit, creativity. But we do need enough to keep the momentum going.
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#2,265
TheTalkingMule said:
Democracy doesn't require politicians, that's just the way it's been done up til now because we didn't have the communications network necessary to have a functioning representative democracy without a stand in for groups of people. I would imagine we'll rise up and remove all House members, one by one at first then in large swaths, until we have nothing but polling of actual citizens to decide what passes "the House". Two senators from each state and that's it.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you haven't experience first-hand the hard work required to write good laws. Perhaps the politicians are superfluous, but their legislative staff serve a useful role.
 
#2,269
#2,271
#2,272
The debate over climate change has never been about science. It has always been about money and ideology.

The deniers will never accept the 99% likelihood of anthropomorphic global warming because it leads to the logical conclusion that entrenched carbon fuels interests must go into decline, and because it implies that government regulation of carbon emissions is necessary.

People who have wealth or income tied to the status quo energy sources are going to fight to the end to preserve what they have.

People who believe fervently in unlimited free markets look upon carbon dioxide regulations with revulsion.

To accept reality would be to face the loss of tremendous wealth and possibly the philosophical death of worldview and values. Humiliation and loss of self may be even worse than losing some money.

Arguing the facts is therefore pointless. What people need is a way out. For the common person mining coal or working the oil fields, this might mean jobs in solar or battery manufacturing. Unfortunately for the ideologues, I'm not sure they have any way out but to admit that they are wrong and move on.
 
#2,274
Raffy.Roma said:
You got the main point! The purpose of this thread is to make people understand that the debate over climate change has to focus on science rather personal interests.
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I'm afraid that in my experience, people don't focus on science, and won't focus on it.

I've presented good scientific evidence to skeptics and it has never convinced them. A 0% success rate. They just kept on saying the same debunked stuff or kept arguing politics.

People are not going to buy even incontrovertible science if it means they lose all their money. Some people can never admit that they are wrong.

That's why I believe that more than just science has to be offered. People will only be convinced if they see that the alternative to the status quo can be better. Tesla is a part of that, because the company shows that it's reality that a car that could be powered by non-carbon fuels can be much better than a petrol engine car.

Tesla can even bring the free market people in the U.S. along, because it provides a better alternative to the car dealers (who have used government influence and laws to entrench themselves and take money off of consumers).

People need a way out. Show a path out that's good, and this debate will end.
 
#2,275
anticitizen13.7 said:
I'm afraid that in my experience, people don't focus on science, and won't focus on it.

I've presented good scientific evidence to skeptics and it has never convinced them. A 0% success rate. They just kept on saying the same debunked stuff or kept arguing politics.

People are not going to buy even incontrovertible science if it means they lose all their money. Some people can never admit that they are wrong.

That's why I believe that more than just science has to be offered. People will only be convinced if they see that the alternative to the status quo can be better. Tesla is a part of that, because the company shows that it's reality that a car that could be powered by non-carbon fuels can be much better than a petrol engine car.

Tesla can even bring the free market people in the U.S. along, because it provides a better alternative to the car dealers (who have used government influence and laws to entrench themselves and take money off of consumers).

People need a way out. Show a path out that's good, and this debate will end.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%
 
#2,277
anticitizen13.7 said:
... The deniers will never accept the 99% likelihood of anthropomorphic global warming because it leads to the logical conclusion that entrenched carbon fuels interests must go into decline, and because it implies that government regulation of carbon emissions is necessary...
Click to expand...

Not necessarily -- they have another way out that allows them to accept the science of climate change -- and one that better serves their interests. When you are clearly losing a game, instead of conceding defeat (i.e. carbon fuel interests must go into decline), you can instead just move the goal posts:

Why climate change is good for the world The Spectator

Benefits of Global Warming Greatly Exceed Costs, New Study Says | Heartlander Magazine

We have a new climate change consensus — and it The Spectator

Looking for the Good Side of Global Warming? Well, It's Warmer - Businessweek
 
#2,278
Canuck said:
Why climate change is good for the world The Spectator

Benefits of Global Warming Greatly Exceed Costs, New Study Says | Heartlander Magazine

We have a new climate change consensus — and it The Spectator

Looking for the Good Side of Global Warming? Well, It's Warmer - Businessweek
Click to expand...

Ok but please look at the video in my post #733 of this thread to see what is the bad side of Global Warming. I bet that after having seen the video in my post #733 everybody will understand that it's better to prevent Global Warming.
 
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