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Charging the Roadster

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#181
I believe they are limited by code to 25 feet.

Assuming the GFCI is in the Tesla box shown they have it next to the source plug. If the cord is too long after the GFCI then you may get nuisance trips.

That Tesla plug alone could be a $4-500 cost.

The box looks to be waterproof (gasket?) but the dryer plug is not. They had to get this thing approved so I'm sure it's somewhat safe.

By the way, besides the cost, when you get your cord stolen you are *screwed* so you better have a backup at home...
 
#183
there is not that much in that box to make it sooooooo absorbidently expensive
Click to expand...
True but remember the numbers. This thing will be produced in a few thousands per year at most. There are high fixed costs (design, verification, validation, certification) that don't have huge numbers to be spread upon resulting in a high cost per part.
 
#184
If the cord is too short, you can buy extensions, but that kind of defeats the purpose of having the GFCI close to the plug. The Clipper Creek unit is smart enough to self reset after GFCI trips (and allows a larger margin). I think the GFCI in this MC240 might be an off-the-self item and is probably not as smart.
 
#185
There were some comments that the Clipper Creek charge controllers would allow up to something like 20ma of current leakage before the GFCI would trip, but the Tesla in house chargers were more like 5ma.

I later read that the ACP Reductive charging introduces some leakage and perhaps could trip a more touchy GFCI. I wonder if this lead to either the charge controller changeover, or the reports that they may be moving away from reductive charging?

Thoughts on EV Charging Interfaces
...At the beginning I assumed that any electric vehicle would use a switching power supply as its charger. This is not necessarily the case. It's an interesting coincidence that the EV1's battery pack voltage, 312 volts, is not much below that produced by direct rectification of the 240 VAC power line (340 volts). Given that the EV1's inverter (the electronic circuit that converts DC into AC for the induction motor) looks very much like a DC switching power supply in reverse, it's possible to feed 240V AC line current directly back into the inverter. This would use the inverter as if it were doing regenerative braking -- with the AC power line taking the place of the motor/generator. This approach, called reductive charging by Alan Cocconi (one of the original EV1 designers) has the advantage of requiring neither an offboard charger like the Magnecharger or the nearly equivalent onboard charger. The inverter would double as the charger, and with its existing liquid cooling system it could probably handle some fairly high charging power levels -- at least as high as those encountered in highway cruising.
This approach would dictate a conductive interface.
For safety's sake, this approach would require the complete isolation of the propulsion battery and all related circuitry from the chassis of the car. Both the negative and positive lines from the propulsion battery would be "hot" with AC with respect to ground while charging. The EV1 is already designed this way. But Cocconi reports that even with this isolation, small leakage currents can exist that will trip a GFCI in the supply circuit and careful design of the drive motor is required to eliminate them.
As an alternative, a stationary AC isolation transformer could be provided on the outlet used for charging. But because this would have to be a 60 Hz transformer rated for full charging power, it would be physically large and heavy. It could easily be heavier and possibly even more expensive than the existing Magnecharger.
The existing switch-mode chargers, for all their faults, do provide AC ground isolation "for free" through their high-frequency transformers -- either the one built into the car (conductive approach) or the one formed by the paddle and coupler in the inductive approach. And they do adapt readily to changes in AC line voltages. Both problems would have to be solved in any direct AC charging scheme...
Click to expand...
EV digest 5003
...

it is a consequence of using a high-frequency switcher for your
charger and/or controller.

Every wire in your EV's high voltage propulsion system has capacitance to
ground. Large conductors, laying right against the metal body, for long
distances, all conspire to create relatively large capacitances.

If you use a plain old 60 Hz transformer-based charger, and a plain old
contactor controller, the AC current in all these capacitors is low enough to
ignore. It won't reach 5ma, and won't trip a GFCI, and won't represent a
shock hazard if, for example, the ground wire breaks while you are charging
and someone touches the car body and actual earth ground.

If you have a high-frequency switcher for a charger, then this same stray
capacitance can carry a substantially higher current. Now you *can* get over
5ma, trip the GFCI, or get a shock...
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
#188
If there is no competition then you can charge what the market will bear.

If the volumes are low then you must have high margins to make up for the R&D costs.

Annoying perhaps, but not unreasonable.
 
#191
Here's another money problem that Tesla has now that will likely increase.

As they began bringing in experts from Detroit I can just hear the 'accessory' conversations.

"What!? no servicing for Electric Cars?!! You better figure out how to make money on something besides selling cars, fast!
 
#192
I don't think it's an outrageous price. Sure they're making decent money on the item with high margin, similar to other options. It's probably 30% to 50% at most more than it should be.

Didn't it used to be priced at $1200 before the price adjustments?
 
#195
WarpedOne said:
This is just a myth. It is not only ICE that needs servicing, the whole car does.
Electric drivetrain will also need repairs, only oil, timing belts etc will go away and some (more durabe) electric components will come in.
Click to expand...
No coolant changes or radiator replacements, no exhaust system repairs, probably no brake pad or rotor changes, no alternator or water pump replacements, and no spark plugs. Those are a few of the items I've had to deal with in the last 10 years or so of ICE maintenance. I see a lot of revenue going away with properly built EV's.
 
#196
This is a slight change of topic, But I think it is quite important.

I just made two posts to the owners forum:

FYI delivery schedule
Perf/Tech/Batteries

The summary version is:
Has anyone else heard of a reason to believe that the new standard charger (110 mobile charger) or the 220 mobile charger would affect the calendar/cycle life of the battery relative to using the wall-mounted charger due to a difference is charging algorithms.

(on a realted note, I just locked in #619 as midnight-blue with black/drk grey interior ... delivery July09)

//dan.
 
#198
JRP3 said:
No coolant changes or radiator replacements, no exhaust system repairs, probably no brake pad or rotor changes, no alternator or water pump replacements, and no spark plugs. Those are a few of the items I've had to deal with in the last 10 years or so of ICE maintenance. I see a lot of revenue going away with properly built EV's.
Click to expand...

The Roadster does have a radiator, pump and coolant lines to cool the ESS. The temperatures are a lot less than with an ICE so it could last longer, but the pump can wear out, and the coolant likely needs to be changed occasionally.

Also, the regen is rear wheels only, so the front pads do plenty of work during hard braking.

Probably bigger than the ones you listed would be no oil changes and no smog checks.
 
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