Charging etiquette on the local news

[danzig]

I leave this on my dash with the paper clip indicating the time I can be unplugged. I also have my phone number shown. Eliminates all the confusion:

View attachment 55190

I like that! Very smart.

 

[mknox]

If I desperately need a charge and the only spot available is occupied by a plug-in hybrid that doesn't really need the electricity, I would have no inhibition unplugging that person. Without that charge, I can't go anywhere. The plug-in hybrid, by contrast, can still go anywhere. If the plug-in hybrid driver had an empty gas tank, or only 1-2 gallons in a much larger tank, whose responsibility is that?

I'm inclined to agree, but in my case I think it would be with great hesitation. I'd do everything to try and find the owner first. Normally, I don't bother with "opportunity charging" but I have seen Volts (and other PHEVs) plugged in at hotels and such overnight which is, IMHO, bad form.

 

[liuping]

If I desperately need a charge and the only spot available is occupied by a plug-in hybrid that doesn't really need the electricity, I would have no inhibition unplugging that person. Without that charge, I can't go anywhere. The plug-in hybrid, by contrast, can still go anywhere. If the plug-in hybrid driver had an empty gas tank, or only 1-2 gallons in a much larger tank, whose responsibility is that?

If the Volt had no gas (or prefers to not use gas) and pulls in to get home or to a gas station, you feel you should feel free to unplug him? You think it's his fault for not buying gas? When he had enough range to get where he wants to go in pure EV mode by charging and did not need the gas?

If you roll up to the charger with low battery, it is not also you "fault"? You should have charged earlier so this was not you only option. Or maybe you should BMW i3 with range extender, or a Volt and put gas in it.

The rule should be simple: If the car is done charging or there is a note say it's okay, you can unplug them. If not, don't.

 

[mknox]

That's correct. The adapter stays locked into the Model S but someone can disconnect power by unlatching the J1772 handle.

I'll have to test this, but I believe I heard that the Model S will momentarily unlock then re-lock the port when you press the J1772's handle and that the adapter may come out of the car even though the car is locked. I've heard of owners coming back to find their adapter placed up on the bottom edge of the windshield. Not sure if later firmware has corrected this.

 

[liuping]

I'm inclined to agree, but in my case I think it would be with great hesitation. I'd do everything to try and find the owner first. Normally, I don't bother with "opportunity charging" but I have seen Volts (and other PHEVs) plugged in at hotels and such overnight which is, IMHO, bad form.

I agree that is bad form. The Volt only takes a few hours max to charge. They should always leave a note or contact number.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I'll have to test this, but I believe I heard that the Model S will momentarily unlock then re-lock the port when you press the J1772's handle and that the adapter may come out of the car even though the car is locked. I've heard of owners coming back to find their adapter placed up on the bottom edge of the windshield. Not sure if later firmware has corrected this.

I charge with J1772 three to four times a week as my primary charging method. Mine won't unlock the adapter from the port unless the car is unlocked. I had an issue with my key for awhile that prevented it from auto-unlocking, and I always had to remember to push the unlock button to get my adapter out after hitting the J1772 button.

 

[AndY1]

If the plug-in hybrid driver had an empty gas tank, or only 1-2 gallons in a much larger tank, whose responsibility is that?

What about YOUR responsibility to get to you destination without unplugging anyone else? Why should the PHEV vehicles owners bare the cost of your own irresponsibility?

I would have no inhibition unplugging that person. Without that charge, I can't go anywhere.

That's your problem, not anyone else's.

 

[andrewket]

I own a volt and a model S. I rarely use public charging for the volt. 15k miles, over 99% on electric. The volt is no less an EV than the model S. A BEV owner has no more right to use public charging than a PHEV owner. A BEV owner doesn't get priority and doesn't have any excuse for unplugging another EV of any type. Just because a PHEV can use gas doesn't mean that owner should be forced to do so because of another EV owner. For one, it's more expensive. By prematurely unplugging another owner, you are increasing their costs. Are you prepared to reimburse them because you felt you were somehow more entitled?

The real problem is that people are not considerate to others. Move your car as soon as it's done charging. At a minimum, leave contact information or use one of the apps that enables blind communication between owners.

From a technology perspective, I'm eager to see multi-head EVSEs make their way into the field. One circuit, 3-4 heads. Let the EVSE automatically transfer between cars on a first come first serve basis.

 

[JST]

I own a volt and a model S. I rarely use public charging for the volt. 15k miles, over 99% on electric. The volt is no less an EV than the model S. A BEV owner has no more right to use public charging than a PHEV owner. A BEV owner doesn't get priority and doesn't have any excuse for unplugging another EV of any type. Just because a PHEV can use gas doesn't mean that owner should be forced to do so because of another EV owner. For one, it's more expensive. By prematurely unplugging another owner, you are increasing their costs. Are you prepared to reimburse them because you felt you were somehow more entitled?

The real problem is that people are not considerate to others. Move your car as soon as it's done charging. At a minimum, leave contact information or use one of the apps that enables blind communication between owners.

From a technology perspective, I'm eager to see multi-head EVSEs make their way into the field. One circuit, 3-4 heads. Let the EVSE automatically transfer between cars on a first come first serve basis.

See, I disagree--a PHEV *is* less of an EV than a BEV, in the sense that it is not constrained by the same limitations as a BEV. If you can't charge a PHEV, you can drive on gas. That's the whole reason (and the only reason) to buy one; it makes the lack of charging options (or the failure to get a full charge) an inconvenience, rather than an emergency.

As for increases in costs? Well, yeah. That's a pain. But you are talking about an absolute maximum of, what, $4 (assuming you got zero charge and had to drive 40 miles on gas rather than battery)? Realistically, much less? I suppose any involuntary imposition of costs is rude, but $4 vs not being able to get home? That's a big difference.

And driving around in a Volt with only a gallon of gas to save weight is a bit pointless. You're saving maybe 20 or 30 lbs, when JB and Elon the other day noted that even a couple hundred lbs only have a negligible effect on efficiency. And in exchange you are completely gutting the whole raison d'être of the Volt, which is to provide a backup in emergencies.

Think about it this way--if you were driving a PHEV and you pulled up to a public charger at the same time as a Leaf or Model S who was far from home and needed a charge to get there, would you let them go ahead of you? I think (hope?) that everyone on this board would. The situation we are talking about really isn't that different.

 

[liuping]

See, I disagree--a PHEV *is* less of an EV than a BEV, in the sense that it is not constrained by the same limitations as a BEV. If you can't charge a PHEV, you can drive on gas. That's the whole reason (and the only reason) to buy one; it makes the lack of charging options (or the failure to get a full charge) an inconvenience, rather than an emergency.

As for increases in costs? Well, yeah. That's a pain. But you are talking about an absolute maximum of, what, $4 (assuming you got zero charge and had to drive 40 miles on gas rather than battery)? Realistically, much less? I suppose any involuntary imposition of costs is rude, but $4 vs not being able to get home? That's a big difference.

And driving around in a Volt with only a gallon of gas to save weight is a bit pointless. You're saving maybe 20 or 30 lbs, when JB and Elon the other day noted that even a couple hundred lbs only have a negligible effect on efficiency. And in exchange you are completely gutting the whole raison d'être of the Volt, which is to provide a backup in emergencies.

Think about it this way--if you were driving a PHEV and you pulled up to a public charger at the same time as a Leaf or Model S who was far from home and needed a charge to get there, would you let them go ahead of you? I think (hope?) that everyone on this board would. The situation we are talking about really isn't that different.

I think people need to look at this from another perspective.

Say you need a charge and you notice a Leaf has been there for 1 hour. Since he has 20 miles range now and there is another charger within 20 miles, you feel your can unplugging him to charge your car, since he can "make it to the next charger"? Sure it's in convent and may cost him time, but hey, you need a charge and you feel it's your right to unplug people who don't "need" to be charging right then.

How would you feel someone did that to you? Your would go probably go ballistic call the other driver inconsiderate, post a rant on TMC, etc.

No one has the right to unplug another car without permission, unless the car is done charging. You can make excuses to justify your actions, but they are still wrong.

Beside being wrong on principle, you may also be stealing money from him. Many chargers charge a base fee + hourly rate, and most charge a whole hour increment. if he paid $4.95 + $1 an hour and you unplug him a 1/2 hour in. You basically stole $5.49 from him. Even if it's just a $2 an hour flat rate, unless you unplug in at 59 minutes into an hour, you are still stealing from him up to $1.99. Yeah it's just a few $, and I guess some people feel fine just taking money from people because they need it now.

 

[JST]

I think people need to look at this from another perspective.

Say you need a charge and you notice a Leaf has been there for 1 hour. Since he has 20 miles range now and there is another charger within 20 miles, you feel your can unplugging him to charge your car, since he can "make it to the next charger"? Sure it's in convent and may cost him time, but hey, you need a charge and you feel it's your right to unplug people who don't "need" to be charging right then.

How would you feel someone did that to you? Your would go probably go ballistic call the other driver inconsiderate, post a rant on TMC, etc.

No one has the right to unplug another car without permission, unless the car is done charging. You can make excuses to justify your actions, but they are still wrong.

Beside being wrong on principle, you may also be stealing money from him. Many chargers charge a base fee + hourly rate, and most charge a whole hour increment. if he paid $4.95 + $1 an hour and you unplug him a 1/2 hour in. You basically stole $5.49 from him. Even if it's just a $2 an hour flat rate, unless you unplug in at 59 minutes into an hour, you are still stealing from him up to $1.99. Yeah it's just a few $, and I guess some people feel fine just taking money from people because they need it now.

Like I said, I see your point, but I disagree. A PHEV has a whole separate fuel system for a reason. I wouldn't do it unless I absolutely had to, but if it came down to a) sitting there waiting some indeterminate period of time (hours?) for the PHEV driver to come back so that I can charge and get home, or b) unplugging the PHEV, I'd do the latter. S/he has a choice. I don't.

And while we are on the subject, can I just reiterate exactly how much it pisses me off to see Volts and PHEV Priuses plugged in at Dulles airport? Those things are probably going to be done charging by the time the owner boards his or her flight, yet they are going to blocking the charger the entire time the owner is gone. And if you show up at the airport in your Leaf/FFE/other BEV, you are just screwed.

So irritating.

 

[AndY1]

I've seen a few Model Ss in my town, which park for the whole night and morning, to up to 9:00 AM because it's a free charge on a public charger. They charged 85kWh (it was done charging at 5:00AM but was parked there until 9:00AM) from a free public charger instead of charging at home (ffs they pay 100.000 EUR for the car and then they are so cheap to charge overnight on a free public charger), block all other vehicles to charge and because it's so long, it parks over two parking spaces so no one can park behind him, even though the charging pillar supports two EVs to charge.

So don't write like Model S drivers are saints, because you aren't.

And no, you don't unplug the other vehicle, because you feel like you deserve it more. Follow all EV etiquette rules, not just the ones you like. Otherwise you have no right to be angry at the ICE vehicles parking at EV parking spots.

b) unplugging the PHEV, I'd do the latter. S/he has a choice. I don't.
So irritating.

If your driving style requires unplugging other vehicles for you to get home then you bought a wrong vehicle.

And driving around in a Volt with only a gallon of gas to save weight is a bit pointless. You're saving maybe 20 or 30 lbs, when JB and Elon the other day noted that even a couple hundred lbs only have a negligible effect on efficiency. And in exchange you are completely gutting the whole raison d'être of the Volt, which is to provide a backup in emergencies.

That's an interesting view. So, Volt owners should have enough gasoline in their vehicles, so they can get home in case a Model S owner unplugs him at the charging station, but you don't need to take care to have enough charge left to get home.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

What about YOUR responsibility to get to you destination without unplugging anyone else? Why should the PHEV vehicles owners bare the cost of your own irresponsibility?



That's your problem, not anyone else's.

Not really. I have a Model S and have never encountered any of these theoretical situations. For me, these discussions are back of the envelope kinds of things. They don't really happen. At least not to me because I charge at home and can drive for two days all over the place. There is no need to get defensive over a situation that never happens to Model S owners. I don't need to charge my Model S with the grocery getters. After all, that's one of the reasons why I bought this car - so I don't have to duke it out with the Volts and the Leafs of this world for a smattering of electrons to get me from one store to the next.

 

[andrewket]

Like I said, I see your point, but I disagree. A PHEV has a whole separate fuel system for a reason. I wouldn't do it unless I absolutely had to, but if it came down to a) sitting there waiting some indeterminate period of time (hours?) for the PHEV driver to come back so that I can charge and get home, or b) unplugging the PHEV, I'd do the latter. S/he has a choice. I don't.

And while we are on the subject, can I just reiterate exactly how much it pisses me off to see Volts and PHEV Priuses plugged in at Dulles airport? Those things are probably going to be done charging by the time the owner boards his or her flight, yet they are going to blocking the charger the entire time the owner is gone. And if you show up at the airport in your Leaf/FFE/other BEV, you are just screwed.

So irritating.

Airports are a different topic. Search and you will find a few threads where I've said that I think airports would be far better off installing 50 120v outlets than 4-6 J1772's.

 

[liuping]

Like I said, I see your point, but I disagree. A PHEV has a whole separate fuel system for a reason. I wouldn't do it unless I absolutely had to, but if it came down to a) sitting there waiting some indeterminate period of time (hours?) for the PHEV driver to come back so that I can charge and get home, or b) unplugging the PHEV, I'd do the latter. S/he has a choice. I don't.

And while we are on the subject, can I just reiterate exactly how much it pisses me off to see Volts and PHEV Priuses plugged in at Dulles airport? Those things are probably going to be done charging by the time the owner boards his or her flight, yet they are going to blocking the charger the entire time the owner is gone. And if you show up at the airport in your Leaf/FFE/other BEV, you are just screwed.

So irritating.

You had a choice, and decided not to buy a range extended EV. You do not know if they have a choice or not, unless you can ready their gas gauge. and you are costing the the price of the charge and the gas needed to get home.

Are you alright stealing from a grocery store if your are hungry and have no money? How about stealing gas from a gas station, to get home? It's just a few dollars and the store/station will not miss it. Is it okay to mug someone on the street to get gas money to keep from being stranded?

Yes these are extremes, but once you feel it's fine to take money from others because you need it (or feel entitled to it) where do you draw the line?


And I'm also annoyed at Volts that park in long term spots, or any spot for that matter for longer than they need.

Airports are weird places for charging stations anyway, unless there a a valet system to move the cars. Every EV will be wasting the spot unless they are on an over night trip. you'd be just as screwed if you show up and all spots are filled with Leafs. One of the off site airport parking garages here in San Diego has a nice system. They have 110 outlets on a bunch of spaces that are powered during off peek hours. You can plug in and get a slow charger while way, and it costs them very little. They also have high speed chargers with valet system, of people on shorter trips.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Are you alright stealing from a grocery store if your are hungry and have no money? How about stealing gas from a gas station, to get home? It's just a few dollars and the store/station will not miss it. Is it okay to mug someone on the street to get gas money to keep from being stranger?

What on earth does theft have to do with this discussion? Unplugging a car charger is not equivalent to theft on any level. This is a very bad analogy.

 

[liuping]

What on earth does theft have to do with this discussion? Unplugging a car charger is not equivalent to theft on any level. This is a very bad analogy.

Most Chargers charge by the hour. If someone unplugs them early, the cost of up to an hour is lost.

Some chargers have a plug in fee + cost for electricity used. If someone unplugs a car early, the owner is out the plug in fee (other at high as $4.95)

Even if it's a free charger, forcing them to use gas, when they did not want or need to, that is $4 a gallon.

Unplugging someone is costing them money without their permision. I stand by my (admittedly extreme) examples.

 

[JST]

What on earth does theft have to do with this discussion? Unplugging a car charger is not equivalent to theft on any level. This is a very bad analogy.

It's not theft (or conversion). In some of the scenarios liuping sketched out it might be akin to tortious interference with contract, but it's not theft. You may be preventing someone from getting what they paid for, but you aren't taking anything from them.

I've never been in this situation, and hope I never will be. There's nothing about my driving style that makes it likely I will be, other than that I drive a BEV and occasionally go beyond the range of my home charger and plan to rely on public chargers to get me home. If that means I've bought the wrong car, well, then--we all have. We should all have bought Volts so we don't have to worry about it.

One further thought. I concede that it's a bit rude to unplug a PHEV. But we are still in the early days of EV adoption, and until public charging options are ubiquitous, there are going to be times where we have to make some sacrifices to support each other as a community.

I would hope that the very minor inconvenience one might experience if there PHEV was unplugged so a BEV could charge is something we could all bear with a certain good humor, but maybe that's asking too much.

 

[liuping]

It's not theft (or conversion). In some of the scenarios liuping sketched out it might be akin to tortious interference with contract, but it's not theft. You may be preventing someone from getting what they paid for, but you aren't taking anything from them.

I've never been in this situation, and hope I never will be. There's nothing about my driving style that makes it likely I will be, other than that I drive a BEV and occasionally go beyond the range of my home charger and plan to rely on public chargers to get me home. If that means I've bought the wrong car, well, then--we all have. We should all have bought Volts so we don't have to worry about it.

True, it may not technically theft, but the effect is the same for person getting unplugged. That person is still out $5 or whatever and does not have a charge they paid for.

 

[capt601]

Most Chargers charge by the hour. If someone unplugs them early, the cost of up to an hour is lost.

Some chargers have a plug in fee + cost for electricity used. If someone unplugs a car early, the owner is out the plug in fee (other at high as $4.95)

Even if it's a free charger, forcing them to use gas, when they did not want or need to, that is $4 a gallon.

Unplugging someone is costing them money without their permision. I stand by my (admittedly extreme) examples.

Costing them money? At $1-2 per hour of charging, they are better off using the gas tank in their hybrid volt. And #1 users that sit at any charger in SoCal? Volts. And not just sit,but sit for hours on end. No excuses for that. Use the gasoline in your hybrid. Zero excuse for not having Enough gasoline. If you don't want the extra weight why did you buy the volt? Do you remove the gas engine as well? Wow.