Charging a Tesla in Switzerland

[suxxer]

We are drivers and not electric engineers. So, I do not understand anything here.

A try to make it short:
The Roadster can charge up to 70A from a single phase. But we have three phases in Europe/Switzerland and you should not use more than 16A per single phase (3,6kVA - Werksvorschriften). So charging higher than 16A (32A, 40A, 63A, 70A) from a single phase is against those specifications. Plus charging at high power needs thicker cables (just look how thick the 70A HPC cable is).

If you charge from all three phases together at the same time you can charge at higher rates than the 16A - for example say 50A or more.

Example:
Charging single phase from a CEE16 (blue, single phase) socket -> 3'680 W (16A*240V)
Charging three phase from CEE16 (red, three phase) socket -> 11'000 W (that's almost 48A if we would use single phase)

So we have almost 3 times more power when using all three phases - without upgrading the cables!

 

[Eberhard]

AS already mentioned. Charging higher as 16A single phase is almost illegal in Europe except where the utility company provide within special environment like ports/harbor high single phase loads. But this are done with special transformers and load managementIf do official ask for 32A single phase load on a 3phase socket, you will run in trouble. (better don't ask).

 

[Mitrovic]

This clarifies things - a little bit.

So what is with all those HPC chargers in Europe? Also in England or in the hotel Dolder or in the Tesla stores?

What is with the 32 A chargers from Texxenergy?
What is with the Brusa charger in Bissone 32A?

So, "emq" proposes to Tesla to make a solution to do a 3 phase charging? With 3 x 16A = 48 A? But Tesla does not react?

What is this "mode" definition. Just definitions or something useful?

And finally why do we have in Europe this definition? The grid in Europe is mostly much better then the grid in the USA. Why are they allowed more Ampere then we are?

May be somebody can provide a link to a book where everything is well explained?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Also in England

we don't have the same issue in the UK where 1-Phase 100A supplies are common in domestic properties (Note: 3-Phase is uncommon in domestic properties but common in commercial properties).

 

[suxxer]

So what is with all those HPC chargers in Europe? Also in England or in the hotel Dolder or in the Tesla stores?

All "almost illegal". See 8.13 here: http://www.werkvorschriften.ch/wv/8.html

The rules of the Werkvorschriften aim to prevent any "Schieflast" on the Grid. See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schieflast.

What is with the 32 A chargers from Texxenergy?
What is with the Brusa charger in Bissone 32A?

It's ok if they use a three phase to one phase converter ("inverter").

So, "emq" proposes to Tesla to make a solution to do a 3 phase charging? With 3 x 16A = 48 A? But Tesla does not react?

Yes. Eberhard asked JB Straubel (CTO,TM) about three phase chargers. JB didn't even know we (Europe) had three phase. The US has single phase.

What is this "mode" definition. Just definitions or something useful?

Mode 1 = Charging without extra pilot signal. That's using the normal 3 or 2-Port socket.

Mode 2 = Charging with extra pilot signal. The signal is generated with the help of a external device ("UMC")

Mode 3 = Charging with extra pilot signal. The signal is generated by the charging infrastructure ("Mennekes Charging Stations")

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 for more info on Mode1,Mode2, Mode3.

And finally why do we have in Europe this definition? The grid in Europe is mostly much better then the grid in the USA. Why are they allowed more Ampere then we are?

One criteria is the "Schieflast". On one phase grid there is no way for a "Schieflast". Other criterias include the size and diameter of cables installed. Higher currents need thicker cables (more expensive)...

 

[TEG]

The rules of the Werkvorschriften aim to prevent any "Schieflast" on the Grid. See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schieflast.

(Note to non German speaking readers: basically it is to avoid 'unbalanced loads' that could possibly damage the 3 phase transformers on the grid.)

 

[Eberhard]

The real problem with one-phase/3-phase that in the real world, that if you charge with 32A you draw more current as you usually do. in your home. Even if your home has a fuse with 100A, you usually draw 10A or less except when you cook but you never cook at full load for several hour. a normal household with 4 persons you will consume 8000-10000kWh/year, that is an average of 5A per hour all year round.
Then you put a load of 32A on a single phase. If everyone start to put the load on the same phase? what will happen? nearly no chance to balance this out.

 

[Mitrovic]

Thank you suxxer and Eberhard for the explanation. The image gets clearer.

So what about these "inverters" three to one phase? Expensive?

And what about England? It is still Europe, isn't it? Why do they have 100A on one phase and Switzerland has only 16 A on one phase? A massive difference.

 

[suxxer]

So what about these "inverters" three to one phase? Expensive?

Big, expensive. The problem is that the Roadster has a built-in charger that only accepts one phase. There are three phase chargers capable of charging the Roadster's Batteries, but Tesla doesn't seem to be willing to make such a unit available for EU-Roadsters.

And what about England? It is still Europe, isn't it? Why do they have 100A on one phase and Switzerland has only 16 A on one phase? A massive difference.

The Fuses of a normal household in Europe typically has a main fuse of around 63A (that's around 21 Amps per phase). You can upgrade that fuse for higher Amps (say 120A, which is around 3*40Amps). That's the advantage of having three phases.

 

[Eberhard]

Tesla decision for an build in one-phase charger is also not well understandable. 3 smaller charger has the same size than a big one , but can handle a) high current single phase or b) 3-phase lower current. c) using 2 or 3 different sockets (as long they don't share the same fuse).

 

[emq]

On the other side of the lake, in Bissone there ist the most southern charging station with 32 A as far as I know. But look at this plug. How can I convert to my red CEE plug?





[/QUOTE]

My investigation: That plug, looking like a CEE32, is a replaced CEE16plus, with biger size.

To get a "Mode 3 to Mode 2/1, Adapter Cable" to charge with 32A, contact Park & Charge Eduard Stolz

Lemnet is not uptodate in Ticino, when a "16/32A BrusaOmnicharge" Electronic faild, they did not replace, because nobody used 32A, in Lemnet maybee is still 16/32A.

Because of my intervention, the lemnet will be updated, but it takes time.

There are about 15-20 plugs CEE16Plus 16/32A, in Riparti Ticino.

There should be no CEE32, because 32A is Mode 3, Mode 3 means CEE32Plus with ControlPilot Contacts, to avoid switching on and off by the Plug and charge only wenn all security checks are ok.
CEE32Plus was never manufactured, only CEE16plus 3pol and CEE16Plus 5 pole.

1996 we got a temporary allowence to install 32A 230V single phase, for the HondaEVPlus. The temporary allowence is over now, so it is not possible, wihtout allowence for connection, to install new 32A 230V Charging plugs.

I had a telefon Call with mitrovic, we could answer all Questions.

 

[Mitrovic]

Yes, I had a long and interesting talk today with "emq"!

I think most of the questions have allready been answered, but here a summary:

I'm awaiting the answer whether tourists can obtain a key for the charging stations in Ticino, but the keys from Park and charge work.

The "32A" charging stations in Ticino are "16 plus" stations and can only be used by an adapter by Tesla drivers. The adapter might be available from Park and Charge. I will try to get one for my UMC.

EMQ and Park and charge would like Tesla to support European users better in providing the possibility to charge with 3 phase, and not only like in America with one phase.
They also say, that they could make a home charger with 50A for the Roadster without hardware modifications, but Tesla would need to make a software update to support it.
So far theoretically everything higher then 16 A is in Europe not legal.

Of course this raises new questions....

 

[Eberhard]

I meet "emq" too, about 2 weeks ago. i strongly support his position on 3-phase charging for the Roadster. it would be very easy for tesla to support 3-phase already. but Elon Musk and JB Straubel don't recognize this as being very important.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

And what about England? It is still Europe, isn't it? Why do they have 100A on one phase and Switzerland has only 16 A on one phase? A massive difference.

The electrical system in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) developed independently to those of "Mainland Europe" and therefore we have different capabilities and limitations today. What we really need is a car that can charge from either single phase (say 70A) and three phase (say 3x32A)... that would allow the car to charge at 'decent' rates in the US, UK, and "Mainland Europe".

 

[suxxer]

My investigation: That plug, looking like a CEE32, is a replaced CEE16plus, with biger size.

Interesting. How does this CEE 16 Plus compare to a standard CEE 16 3 Pin? Is it just bigger?

Standard 3-Pin CEE16

http://www.elektromall.de/CEE_Steckvorichtungen_inkl_Adapter_CEE_Anbaudose_schraeg_20_IP67_16A_230V_3_pol_6h_blau_1_Stueck-70017-651557.html

EDIT:
Could it be a CEE32-230J?? That's a 3-Pin 32A Connector.

CEE32 230J[/B]

http://www.musikus-showtechnik.de/kabel-und-steckverbindungen/cee-32-230j-ceeform-armaturen-32a-230v/a-1014127/

 

[Mitrovic]

Suxxer both are different I think.

I think my pictures are from such 16APlus

 

[emq]

I'm awaiting the answer whether tourists can obtain a key for the charging stations in Ticino, but the keys from Park and charge work.

The key , you can get from P&C and Riparti.
Riparti updates the Pricelist for 4 wheel 3-ph or 32A > 140.-sFr, to be equal with P&C (because there are Users again)

The Cable for 16/32 CEE16plus Mode 3 to Mode 1/2, you can only get from P&C

 

[Eberhard]

The electrical system in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland) developed independently to those of "Mainland Europe" and therefore we have different capabilities and limitations today. What we really need is a car that can charge from either single phase (say 70A) and three phase (say 3x32A)... that would allow the car to charge at 'decent' rates in the US, UK, and "Mainland Europe".

Kevin, you right, thats is what i tried to express too. three smaller charger - thats it.

 

[emq]

Interesting. How does this CEE 16 Plus compare to a standard CEE 16 3 Pin? Is it just bigger?

The Body Frame is bigger, the plug and socket dimensens are identical, because of compatibility.
I am only 90% convinced my interpretation of the Bissone Station picture is a CEE16Plus, because I did not test it, but officialy there should only excist CEE16 and CEE16Plus, no CEE32.
You can easy test a CEE16plus to plug in your CEE16 and charge with only 16A.

You can see CEE16 & CEE16Plus, 32A is CEE16plus, not CEE32

View attachment BrusaIEC-compatible charging concept.doc There is no CEE32 for Mode 1 = unspecific Loading

View attachment CEE_CEEPlusLadezeit.doc

 

[Mitrovic]

EmQ: But how can a - let's say - English driver get the key?