jeff_adams
Member
Of course not. We've had plenty of people join the forums to cause confusion or division. We are mostly a group of enthusiasts that enjoy the hard earned success of Tesla Motors.
I hope you decide to buy one.
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California buyers: Is Tesla splitting the value of energy credits with you?
- Thread starter pbleic
- Start date
Of course not. We've had plenty of people join the forums to cause confusion or division. We are mostly a group of enthusiasts that enjoy the hard earned success of Tesla Motors.
I hope you decide to buy one.
I actually did last night. I must say, though, that the dual interests of this forum - stock holders and owners - makes things complicated. The best thing that can happen to Tesla, the car company, is if people point out issues, etc. That, and competition, will drive the company to be better and better. The conflict arises when there are a lot of stock owners on the forum. They don't want ANYTHING bad printed about the car, and approach criticism as representing the view of a short. Just because you find issues with the car, the service, the company, doesn't mean you want to be a disruptive influence.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
My opinion (not stepping in as a moderator) on ZEV credits ... many manufacturers and other businesses have local tax credits and other incentives that they take advantage of as part of doing business. It may be why they chose to open the business where they did, it may be happy circumstance. In most cases, it is not as transparent to the consumer and the question of 'should local consumers get a discount' never arises.
In Tesla's case, the ZEV credit has been politicized and misused in arguments and and and - and the true purpose of the grant of the credit has been forgotten. While it is given on a per car basis, it is a manufacturer incentive, not a consumer incentive. I live in California. It's Tesla's money, not mine. They've given an incredible number of jobs to the state where I live, along with tax dollars, and that's the benefit I get (along with the large number of electric cars on the road not polluting my air).
In Tesla's case, the ZEV credit has been politicized and misused in arguments and and and - and the true purpose of the grant of the credit has been forgotten. While it is given on a per car basis, it is a manufacturer incentive, not a consumer incentive. I live in California. It's Tesla's money, not mine. They've given an incredible number of jobs to the state where I live, along with tax dollars, and that's the benefit I get (along with the large number of electric cars on the road not polluting my air).
Nothing to do with stock owners. There are fanbois on every car forum.
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Profit is not important in a business that is involved in a process of a massive, rapid expansion. Profitability matters more and even then it's just an indicator for cost control. Profitability should, overall be slightly negative until Tesla is delivering Gen 3 at volume.
The word highlighted above (and other posts in this thread) tells me that you do not understand Tesla's business at all
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
There are all kinds on this forum. People who defend Tesla no matter what. People who have confused 'being critical' with 'critical thinking'. And the vast majority are just great car enthusiasts who love their cars, but still keep at least one foot firmly based in reality.
Other posters are correct in that as the stock price has risen, we have had a larger number of disruptive posters show up on the forum - so people tend to be skeptical at times. We're a sensitive bunch.
As you get more of a posting history and people get to know you, that will go away. We have some long-time posters who are almost ALWAYS negative, to the point they've gotten their own thread.
If you follow the entire thread, you will see that the question about profitability came up because I said that Tesla was using the credits to declare that they are profitable (on a non-GAAP basis). Some have misunderstood Tesla's stance that - without the credits - they still make a gross profit. However, the credits are included in their income statement and do contribute to profitability.
In fact, I believe you are incorrect about Tesla being in the startup "investment" stage, where they are simply spending money raised through shareholder investment and debt. In fact, they paid off debt early and aren't raising more funds. They are trying to demonstrate increasing quarter by quarter (and year on year) profitability, which is what the stock market looks for in a public company, while still leaving room to make investment. In order to do that, they are likely going to have to raise more funds as they move to Gen III. That being said, I am not an expert in this particular stock.
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
We're getting off-topic here. There is an entire investment sub-forum for discussing Tesla's business model. Perhaps the ZEV issue is done?
jeff_adams
Member
Congratulations on your purchase! After you have owned the car for a while you will find yourself unconsciously standing up for the company. It's sort of a "David vs Goliath" thing. Tesla has had to punch above it's weight class since day one.
On ZEV credits, I recall reading a story where Tesla was so cash strapped that they were laying off employees and seriously close to broke and the only thing that got them through was the early selling of those credits. Might had been the Roadster credits I'm thinking of. Point is, the program kept them in business at a critical juncture.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I think this discussion is moot as Tesla reported on Wednesday they sold $0 ZEV credits in the most recent quarter, Q4 2013. They had been guiding analysts all last year to stop modeling ZEV credits as Tesla expected them to go away and was targeting 25% gross margins on the cars without them. Both of those things came true in Q4.
As far as profitability, Tesla is very profitable. They just choose to redeploy that capital back into their business by investing in growing infrastructure (Supercharger network, additional manufacturing lines, R&D on Model X, sales and service centers). Redeploying capital where there is a favorable return on investment is the core principle of Capitalism, and the market and Tesla shareholders would seem to agree. I think this is something the naysayers and shorts have a hard time understanding.
As far as profitability, Tesla is very profitable. They just choose to redeploy that capital back into their business by investing in growing infrastructure (Supercharger network, additional manufacturing lines, R&D on Model X, sales and service centers). Redeploying capital where there is a favorable return on investment is the core principle of Capitalism, and the market and Tesla shareholders would seem to agree. I think this is something the naysayers and shorts have a hard time understanding.
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