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Yes, the FWD vs. RWD decision will be different for EVs, as the masses, shapes, and cooling requirements of the major components are different. Tesla seems to be good at recognizing what is different for EVs, and what is the same. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

I don't expect more than 200 hp, nor do I really want more for a low cost daily driver. Along with Tesla's fantastic traction control, I don't think FWD traction limitations under hard acceleration would be a issue.

GSP
 
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Wish List Vs. What You're Likely To Get

Taking a different approach to the BlueStar discussion . . .

When I have spoken to Tesla they have consistently and repeatedly said that BlueStar will target a BMW 3-series. The base price has always been around $35,000 ($42,500 before the Federal tax credit). {Stripped down BMW 328i is $34,600 as a base} Their rationale is that Tesla is a premium product, they don't want to dilute their brand, it should be aspirational, etc. At $35,000 they will be about $5,000 more than the Leaf and $2,500 more than a basic Volt. So they can still compete head to head with those cars.

The base Model S is $57,400 so to chop the price down to $42,400 - a 26% reduction - they are going to have to chop their greatest expense - the battery. The battery cost to the consumer is roughly $400-$500 per kWh presently (cost to Tesla is less than this but they have gross margins they have promised Wall Street), so let's call it $450 per kWh.. Of the $57,400 Model S price, a minimum of $18,000 or nearly one-third of the car's cost is the battery. There is no way that Tesla can chop the Model S by 26% without chopping the battery.

So the battery must be reduced by 25% from 40 kWh to 30 kWh and this reduces the cost (at retail) by $4,500.
If we assume a 20% reduction in battery costs between now and then that would get us roughly a (20% x $450 x 30) $2,700 reduction in price.

So that gets us $7,200 in retail price reductions with a remaining $7,800 to go.

Now we've just slashed the battery 25% but we don't want range to fall all the way from 160 miles to 120 miles (even though this would still beat the Leaf by 20%). So now while cutting costs, we'd also like to increase range. So the next thing to do is cut the size and weight of the car. Cutting the size of the car will reduce the Area of the car leading to lower cdA and better highway range. Cutting the weight of the car will improve city range.

Vehicle // Height // Track // Wheelbase // Length // Curb Weight
Model S // 56.5" // 65.4" // 116.5" // 195.9" // 3,825# (40 kWh)
BlueStar* // <56" // <60" // <104" // <174" // ~3,300#
* my projections
328i // 55.9" // 59.1" // 106.7" // 178.2" // 3,428#
CT200h // 56.7" // 60" // 102.4" // 170.1" // 3,146#
Prius // 58.7" // 60" // 106.3" // 175.6" // 3,042#
Leaf // 61" // 60.6" // 106.3" // 175" // 3,354#
Volt // 56.6" // 61.2" // 105.7" // 177.1" // 3,781#

Porsche 911 // 51.3" // 60.6" // 96.5" // 176.8" // 3,086#
Roadster** // 44.4" // 58.7" // 95.1" // 155.1" // 2,723#
**current version

With regard to each of these numbers I think:
Height-wise the Model S has good headroom (Franz the designer is 6'5") for being a relatively low-slung car. I would expect the BlueStar to be shorter than the Model S (even though the Leaf is like 61" tall) because that would reduce frontal Area.

Track and Wheelbase (the rectangle between the four tires) impacts the size of the battery. Bear in mind this "skateboard" has to serve as the platform for the Model R (Roadster / Reimagined / Racing). Track would be 59"-60" - can't see it being narrower than this for (1) passenger comfort and Model R performance. Wheelbase will probably be closer to the Lexus CT200H rather than the rest of the competition, so between 102" and 106". And the Length of the car will be substantially shorter again, so between 170" and 176".

Shrinking these dimensions is necessary to reduce costs and trim weight. The vehicle will be smaller than a 3-series but can make up for that with a greater occupant area. By necessity BlueStar will be more of a "cab forward" design (like the Prius) where the windshield extends to the front axle and the rear windshield / hatchback also is a slope. I expect the back of the vehicle to look like a cross between the Lexus CT200h and the Prius. You don't want the back of the car to end in a tall hatchback because that will create drag.

BlueStar needs to look like a futuristic fluidic "bubble" (I have no doubt Franz will make it good-looking) for two reasons (1) to keep the passenger area large enough and (2) to keep drag low enough. Tesla has stated that the Model S needed to look like a traditional ICE car but that future models would look less like traditional ICE cars and more futuristic.

Cutting the dimensions will cut substantial costs for sure but a lot of the systems have to be similar in size and price regardless of the size of the car (still need two front seats, still need HVAC, etc). So I would expect that to save costs Tesla would have to reduce the number of features and options that BlueStar carries. Those fancy door handles will be gone for sure. The 17" screen will be cut in half. High quality interior trim materials will become an option package rather than standard. All the remaining cost cost have to come here.

So when all is said and done I think you end up with 3 models:

30 kWh 130-150 mile range $34,900 = base model
45 kWh 195-225 mile range $44,900 = bigger battery + substantial upgrades to make it nicer
60 kWh 260-300 mile range $54,900 = biggest battery + fit and finish of a nicely equipped Model S

For performance you will have two choices

Model R 60 kWh 260-300 mile range $99,000 0-60 in 3.4 seconds
Model R-SS $119,000 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.

Model R will be a 2+2 (where rear seats have LATCH connectors for car seats like a 911) hence no longer a pure Roadster and will be AWD with 2 motors allowing them to get the 0-60 times down. It will have a low slung height and will be a GTR killer.

Boy it is fun to speculate!
 
Great work, WhiteKnight.

I think this thread now has enough material to put together our bluestar pricing & options page. Will help avoid disappointed reservation holders, be it signature or base model! Does anybody have some free web space with shareable access? Might start that on my homepage if no one does... :wink:

Edit: I will set up a bank account for deposit payments. Euro only, please.
 
And One More Thing . . .

With a 20% reduction in battery costs in 3 years, I would expect that at the time that BlueStar is announced, Tesla would drop the 40 kWh model (which is kind of a BlueStar in waiting right now). The price of the 60 kWh model would drop by $5,000 to be $55K, the 85 kWh would become $65K and they would introduce a new Model S Ultra priced at $75K which would incorporate ultra capacitors in combination with the batteries to add 40-90 miles in range and give you a 5 minute charge option.

Note: I still expect no pack below 60 kWh to have proprietary Tesla SuperCharging. So the whole new Model S line and the most expensive BlueStar would have it.

Also expect Model S will introduce 4 wheel drive and dramatically lower 0-60 times (like base model on AWD is 0-60 in 4.7s and performance AWD is 0-60 in 3.9s).

So new Model S lineup would be

60 kWh 230 mile range $55,000 RWD 0-60 in 5.9s
60 kWh 230 mile range $60,000 AWD 0-60 in 4.7s
85 kWh 300 mile range $65,000 RWD 0-60 in 5.6s
85 kWh 300 mile range $70,000 AWD 0-60 in 4.4s
85 Ultra 365 mile range $75,000 RWD 0-60 in 5.6s 5 minute quick charge
85 Ultra Performance $85,000 AWD 0-60 in 3.9s 5 minute quick charge
 
Yes, great post Whiteknight.

Copying an idea posted elsewhere for the Model S, I assumed the same 4C maximum discharge rate as the Roadster, and calculated the power available for the speculated BlueStar models:

30 kWh 130-150 mile range $34,900 = 120 kW (160 HP)
45 kWh 195-225 mile range $44,900 = 180 kW (240 HP)
60 kWh 260-300 mile range $54,900 = 240 kW (320 HP)

This would be perfectly adequate in my opinion (other opinions may vary).

With 320 HP it may be difficult to meet the 0-60 mph specs below. *However, by using cells designed for more power, range could be traded for acceleration.

Model R 60 kWh 260-300 mile range $99,000 0-60 in 3.4 seconds
Model R-SS $119,000 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.

GSP
 
I strongly believe and I think Tesla has even said that the next car they make after X will be competing with a BMW 3 series. .....

Well they said it was tha same size as a BMW 3 series and Jetta.

I would like a base 160 $29K (before tax rebate) version to compete with other cars.
I would get a loaded 250 mile version (at least). RWD and design more like a mini model S than a Leaf utility car.
 
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Don't forget Panasonic expects to get to 4Ah cells by then (although JB said they could go beyond 300 miles now, but they think it is a sweet spot).

panasonic%2525204000%25252018650%252520roadmap.JPG


panasonic%25252018650%252520roadmap.JPG
 
What would 4Ah cells do for 'us'? Sorry I am not versed enough to grasp the implications.
Let's say they are going for 30 kWh pack size with current cells. It would either give a much higher kWh pack with same number of cells or could use less cells (lighter weight and cheaper) to get the whatever kWh pack size they would going for.
 
Enable your Model S Ultra perhaps.

Fit more range in a smaller car.

Drive down the cost of the 3.1.

Great - thanks!!

So would it be fair to say the 4.0 Ah deliver roughly 30% more "range" than the 3.1 Ah?
So the same 300 mile pack filled with 4.0 Ah cells could be a 390 mile pack (before any scaling degradation issues).

Are the 4.0Ah cells expected to cost a lot more, about the same, tough to say?

Thank you for the free education :).
 
Well, in the dim and distant past when the 4Ah was announced (Christmas day 2009 IIRC), I seem to remember they were going to weigh more and thus there wasn't a gravimetric (weight) energy density advantage over the 3.4s. However you would get more per volume.

Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells That Can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles | Headquarters News | Panasonic Global

So the car will weigh more, all other things being equal, and the weight impact on range will have an effect even though it is carrying more energy.

However perhaps Panasonic have managed to reduce the weigt in the last 2 years. As for cost, I guess it is hard to say. But maybe production cost is reduced with this new electrode.
 
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Yes, great post Whiteknight.

Copying an idea posted elsewhere for the Model S, I assumed the same 4C maximum discharge rate as the Roadster, and calculated the power available for the speculated BlueStar models:

30 kWh 130-150 mile range $34,900 = 120 kW (160 HP)
45 kWh 195-225 mile range $44,900 = 180 kW (240 HP)
60 kWh 260-300 mile range $54,900 = 240 kW (320 HP)

This would be perfectly adequate in my opinion (other opinions may vary).

With 320 HP it may be difficult to meet the 0-60 mph specs below. *However, by using cells designed for more power, range could be traded for acceleration.

Model R 60 kWh 260-300 mile range $99,000 0-60 in 3.4 seconds
Model R-SS $119,000 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.

GSP

Thank you for that great analysis. Looks like the smallest pack will have modest performance but the biggest pack will be very fast.

I would expect for the Model R (Roadster) that they will slash the weight dramatically (make everything they can carbon fiber etc) to get under 3,000 pounds.. They would definitely have the 1200A inverter of the Model S performance + two motors. Additionally if there is some way to incorporate Ultracapacitors to give a rapid discharge of power (especially on the $119K version) then that technology might be perfected by then!
 
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And I expect the $7,500 federal tax rebate to disappear in two years at the latest. A LOT of EVs are going to be sold in 2012/2013. Those rebates are going to really start adding up to real money.

The current federal legislation is 200,000 cars eligible per manufacturer for the rebate; Congress is considering raising that limit to 500,000 per manufacturer. The only manufacturer that can ramp up to those numbers in two years would be Nissan. Tesla, due to its low volume of cars should have the rebate available probably for even the early Blue Star adopters .
 
So, it would be a direct competitior to i3.

The problem with C segment is that - I don't think there will be enough space for a long range battery (I'm assuming we are talking about something being produced in 2014/15).

No I am not seeing it as a direct competitor to the i3 because it is only supposed to have a range of 100 miles and IMHO that is not enough for the average Joe to feel safe. Fine for a city car but the average person does not want a City car ONLY.