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Big increase in PG&E E-9 rates (N. Cal.)
- Thread starter slcasner
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- California USA
smorgasbord
Active Member
EDIT: I had made some mistakes on the TOU periods when I first posted this, partially because PG&E revised their first proposal. I believe this post now has the correct information for what was actually adopted. Let me know if there are still inaccuracies.
It's a bit hard to compare the new and old rates, since the basis and time periods don't match up. Here's one attempt - I'm sure with time we can work up better ways to compare. Here's the document I'm working from: E-4508 Final Resolution (PG&E AL3910-E, 1910-E-A), dated Aug 23, 2012.
The new plan retain the 3 rates: Peak, Part-Peak, and Off-Peak, changes pricing for each and changes when they are in effect. The current E9 plans have tiered pricing, which means you start at one rate and it increases as your usage that month increases. For me and my one car we often went into tier 5. The new "Schedule EV" plan's pricing doesn't vary by usage. Without getting into the specific tier pricing, here the pricing per kWh & TOU periods for Summer, then Winter.
Summer:
Winter:
So, note that under the new plan you can start charging at 11pm instead of midnight. If you need more time to charge, then the new rate gives you an extra hour. But note that the new plan bumps you into Peak rates 3pm-7pm on weekends, where the existing plan only bumped you to Part-Peak 5pm-9pm on weekends. That could hurt if you're running air conditioning on the weekends (when you're home).
In general, people selling solar power back to PGE or people who don't go above tier 2 are better off with the existing plan. People who don't have solar and who regularly go into tier 5 might be better under the new plan. I don't know where the math works out for people in tiers 3 and 4.
I hope I got the numbers right. Let me know if I've made any mistakes and I'll correct them. The E9A numbers are from the latest PGE document for July 2012.
It's a bit hard to compare the new and old rates, since the basis and time periods don't match up. Here's one attempt - I'm sure with time we can work up better ways to compare. Here's the document I'm working from: E-4508 Final Resolution (PG&E AL3910-E, 1910-E-A), dated Aug 23, 2012.
The new plan retain the 3 rates: Peak, Part-Peak, and Off-Peak, changes pricing for each and changes when they are in effect. The current E9 plans have tiered pricing, which means you start at one rate and it increases as your usage that month increases. For me and my one car we often went into tier 5. The new "Schedule EV" plan's pricing doesn't vary by usage. Without getting into the specific tier pricing, here the pricing per kWh & TOU periods for Summer, then Winter.
Summer:
| Type | Current E9A | New Schedule EV |
| Peak | 30-54 cents | 36 cents |
| Part-Peak | 10-34 cents | 20 cents |
| Off-Peak | 5-20 cents | 10 cents |
| Type | Current E9A M-F | New Schedule EV M-F | Current E9A Weekends | New Schedule EV Weekends | |
| Peak | 2pm-9pm | 2pm-9pm | No Peak | 3pm-7pm | |
| Part-Peak | 7am-2pm & 9pm-midnite | 7am-2pm & 9pm-11pm | 5pm-9pm | No Part-Peak | |
| Off-Peak | mid-7am | 11pm-7am | 9pm-5pm | 7pm-3pm |
Winter:
| Type | Current E9A | New Schedule EV |
| Peak | No Peak in Winter | 27 cents |
| Part-Peak | 10-34 cents | 16 cents |
| Off-Peak | 5-20 cents | 10 cents |
| Type | Current E9A M-F | New Schedule EV M-F | Current E9A Weekends | New Schedule EV Weekends | |
| Peak | No Peak | 2pm-9pm | No Peak | 3pm-7pm | |
| Part-Peak | 7am-midnite | 7am-2pm & 9pm-11pm | 5pm-9pm | No Part-Peak | |
| Off-Peak | mid-7am | 11pm-7am | 9pm-5pm | 7pm-3pm |
So, note that under the new plan you can start charging at 11pm instead of midnight. If you need more time to charge, then the new rate gives you an extra hour. But note that the new plan bumps you into Peak rates 3pm-7pm on weekends, where the existing plan only bumped you to Part-Peak 5pm-9pm on weekends. That could hurt if you're running air conditioning on the weekends (when you're home).
In general, people selling solar power back to PGE or people who don't go above tier 2 are better off with the existing plan. People who don't have solar and who regularly go into tier 5 might be better under the new plan. I don't know where the math works out for people in tiers 3 and 4.
I hope I got the numbers right. Let me know if I've made any mistakes and I'll correct them. The E9A numbers are from the latest PGE document for July 2012.
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gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
PG&E's markup over wholesale energy costs is mind-blowing. Here are the wholesale power prices, delivered to the PG&E system, for the Tuesdays this July, aggregated by the same three blocks of time defined in the tariff. (Prices are in $/MWh, so shift the decimal point one to the left to get the cents/kWh)
Source: California Independent System Operator
| 7/24/2012 | 7/17/2012 | 7/10/2012 | 7/3/2012 | Average Wholesale | PG&E EV Rate | Markup | |
| Off-Peak | $ 21.32 | $ 21.38 | $ 17.76 | $ 16.90 | $ 19.34 | $100 | 417% |
| Part-Peak | $ 31.02 | $ 27.25 | $ 31.61 | $ 25.94 | $ 28.96 | $200 | 591% |
| Peak | $ 44.94 | $ 31.49 | $ 60.03 | $ 35.79 | $ 43.06 | $360 | 736% |
Source: California Independent System Operator
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Paying off the DWP bonds due to the power crisis and nuclear decommissioning costs etc. These are the "non-bypassable" costs (among others). I think that's why E-9 is such a problem for PG&E, that is the tier 1 off-peak doesn't even pay these costs. The highest tiers are only explainable to punish peek usage.
If you're like me and regularly into the top tiers because you have a tiny baseline and really drive your EV a lot this new schedule is great. Tesla owners will probably benefit from this; Leaf and Volt owners - I doubt they win with this. They just don't use enough power.
If you're like me and regularly into the top tiers because you have a tiny baseline and really drive your EV a lot this new schedule is great. Tesla owners will probably benefit from this; Leaf and Volt owners - I doubt they win with this. They just don't use enough power.
strider
Active Member
Thanks for the analysis smorg. I'll make sure to peer at my next PG&E bill and run the numbers both ways.
Though I'm guessing that once we have a Roadster and Model S we'll be pushing into the high tiers (if we aren't already). So although we're on E-9A now, may move to the new one sooner.
Though I'm guessing that once we have a Roadster and Model S we'll be pushing into the high tiers (if we aren't already). So although we're on E-9A now, may move to the new one sooner.
smorgasbord
Active Member
I'm thinking that due to the Part-Peak to Peak change for Winter, and my ability to stay on lower tiers during winter (get that $0.05 rate) that I'll stay on the E-9A at least until next May, and then look at switching to the new schedule if I think that makes sense.
Unfortunately, PGE has never given me true usage per hour indication. I get pages and pages of stuff, but it's impossible to figure out anything except my total usage for each of the 3 peak, part-peak, off-peak rates.
Unfortunately, PGE has never given me true usage per hour indication. I get pages and pages of stuff, but it's impossible to figure out anything except my total usage for each of the 3 peak, part-peak, off-peak rates.
PG&E is supposed to have their back-end systems act together sufficiently to install SmartMeters for TOU/Net Metering customers "later this year". That would provide the hourly data necessary to accurately evaluate these rate schedules.
Robert -- Thanks for pointing out the absurd overhead numbers for PG&E. What is typical for the rest of the country?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I did have a SmartMeter until I installed my solar system. It was extremely useful in reducing my usage and motivating me to move some things to off-hours. But when I switched to solar, the SmartMeter went away. Hope that's part of the 'later this year' plan.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Let me clarify ... I should have said I can no longer access the SmartMeter data online, now that I have solar. I misspoke in saying I lost the SmartMeter.
I should have said that I lost daily access to the SmartMeter hourly usage data. And that was extremely useful in tracking down the energy vampires.
I should have said that I lost daily access to the SmartMeter hourly usage data. And that was extremely useful in tracking down the energy vampires.
I've been following this rate adjustment for some time. Like many of you I wrote a protest letter when the change was first announced and have thus been copied on all of the decisions.
I am a tier 1 E-9A customer. I at first assumed that the rate increase was bad for me since rates are going up - especially the night-time charging rate - from about $.05 to about $.10. Now that I look more closely, this may be a win for me.
1) a current $0.21/day meter fee is being dropped.
2) I am a net producer during the day and a net consumer off-peak. Overall, I consume about 20KWh/month - but since I sell back higher-priced juice during the day, I have no net cost. Since both rates are going up by about the same amount - mostly it will be a wash.
3) Since part-peak summer rates are going up even more than other rates - I may get a net credit from that.
4) Since peak will start at 3:00 - I should push even more into the grid at peak rates.
The true penalties are for low-consumption users who don't sell back during peak time. That's probably many people with moderately sized PVA arrays.
Of course, now that I look at the numbers - even at $0.40/KWh fixed, my bill would only be $8/month. I think I've already spent too much time thinking about this...
(I'm still in the $450 August bill pre-solar mindset)
I am a tier 1 E-9A customer. I at first assumed that the rate increase was bad for me since rates are going up - especially the night-time charging rate - from about $.05 to about $.10. Now that I look more closely, this may be a win for me.
1) a current $0.21/day meter fee is being dropped.
2) I am a net producer during the day and a net consumer off-peak. Overall, I consume about 20KWh/month - but since I sell back higher-priced juice during the day, I have no net cost. Since both rates are going up by about the same amount - mostly it will be a wash.
3) Since part-peak summer rates are going up even more than other rates - I may get a net credit from that.
4) Since peak will start at 3:00 - I should push even more into the grid at peak rates.
The true penalties are for low-consumption users who don't sell back during peak time. That's probably many people with moderately sized PVA arrays.
Of course, now that I look at the numbers - even at $0.40/KWh fixed, my bill would only be $8/month. I think I've already spent too much time thinking about this...
(I'm still in the $450 August bill pre-solar mindset)
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Maybe PG&E reads the forum 
. From SmartMeter for Solar Customers
Yay. I really have hated not being able to monitor online.
. From SmartMeter for Solar CustomersYay. I really have hated not being able to monitor online.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Maybe PG&E reads the forum
Yay. I really have hated not being able to monitor online.
Bonnie, I have a PV system and am on E-7. A couple of weeks ago, I used the following to get the free upgrade to a SmartMeter:
SmartMeter Program Upgrade Request
Received an email confirmation shortly after indicating that they'll contact me a few days prior to the installation date. No updates since but, they do the job anyway without me having to plan to stick around at home.
strider
Active Member
So I'm sitting here w/ my latest PG&E bill and decided to crunch the numbers. As it stands w/ the Roadster we get into Tier 4 in each category. We do not have A/C. 862Kwh billed (128 Peak, 168 Part-Peak, 565 Off-Peak) for a total of $153.33. Running the numbers w/ Smorg's summary (not correcting for time shifts) it looks like I would have paid $136.49 under the new plan. So it's looking like the new plan would be better, especially when we add a Model S which could push us into Tier 5. Does that sound right? Can I call PG&E and move to the new plan now? Granted we're moving into Winter and I haven't looked at those rates.
CyberDutchie
Active Member
In anticipation of getting my Model S, I switched to the E-9A plan last month. I decided to do this now after I did some calculations based on historic hourly usage data that is available for the months we have had our Smart Meter. Today I got my first bill under the E-9A plan and my average rate is actually two cents lower than with the previous E-1 plan (same consumption): $0.20 versus $0.22.
Per my bill, I was charged the following rates:
Summer Peak Usage
Baseline Usage: $0.30178
101-130% of Baseline: $0.31994
131-200% of Baseline: $0.50036
201-300% of Baseline: $0.54036
Summer Partial Peak Usage
Baseline Usage: $0.09876
101-130% of Baseline: $0.11692
131-200% of Baseline: $0.29734
201-300% of Baseline: $0.33734
Summer Off-Peak Usage
Baseline Usage: $0.03743
101-130% of Baseline: $0.05559
131-200% of Baseline: $0.15808
201-300% of Baseline: $0.19808
Winter Partial Peak Usage
Baseline Usage: $0.09864
101-130% of Baseline: $0.11679
131-200% of Baseline: $0.29721
201-300% of Baseline: $0.33721
Winter Off-Peak Usage
Baseline Usage: $0.04680
101-130% of Baseline: $0.06495
131-200% of Baseline: $0.15808
201-300% of Baseline: $0.19808
Note that winter rates are in effect since 11/1, and there is no winter peak rate apparently.
Assuming that when I get my Model S I'll stay within my current tiers, I will be paying about 20 cents per KwH if I charge my car in the off-peak hours. That amounts to about $71 added to my bill each month with 1,000 miles per month driving.
Still pretty cheap compared to my current Kia Optima's fuel cost of $280 per month.
I don't know the rates for Ties 5. But I'm looking forward to the new EV schedule where they will do away with tiering all together. Does anyone know if that schedule has been approved and when it will become effective?
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smorgasbord
Active Member
I would wait until summer rates come back. The new plan has times for Peak rates, even on weekends, so old winter is better than new winter unless you're squarely in Tier 5 (maybe).
Like I said, I never got actual TOU data, so I can't easily tell for sure.
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strider
Active Member
So I have my first bill w/ both the Roadster and Model S. I am soundly into Tier 5 (I assume that's the Over 300%) line. I just crunched the numbers with ALL of my part peak as Schedule EV peak time (which is isn't but I can't be bothered to mine the SmartMeter data) and the new rate would save me $40/month. So my actual savings would be more since there is some part peak in there. So it looks pretty definitive for me with two EV's and no solar to offset the new rates are better. Going to call PG&E and see if I can switch now.
Update: Just called PG&E and the new rate is not yet active. The lady I talked to said not until the summer.
Update: Just called PG&E and the new rate is not yet active. The lady I talked to said not until the summer.
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JohnEC
S 00443
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