Beginnings of a trade war between Canada and the USA. Affects on Tesla?

[McRat]

Most of Congress is reportedly most upset about these tariffs. They are also the American Government. This is the action of one man by and large. Some support him, but the vast majority do not.

Most of Congress leave office as multi-millionaires based on what they do while in office. We have the best government that money can buy.

 

[Shock-On-T]

We have a global economy. Countries bypass tariffs all the time by changing 'point-of-origin' legally or illegally. The goal is to reestablish these industries.

And there's that whole Terrance & Phillip thing to answer for...

Everyone knows where China dumps its steel and it’s not bloody Canada.
Putting tariffs on Canada is a cruel and capricious act to a friendly neighbour.

I take comfort in the thought that it’s not Americans and their representatives who are doing this.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

The American people did not declare Canada a security risk and it's absurd to suggest otherwise.

Yes he did. It was the reason he gave gave for the Tarrifs. The president represents the US government and the US people.


The Americans voted in favour of Hillary Clinton -- by almost 2.9 million votes, with 65,844,954 (48.2%) to Trump's 62,979,879 (46.1%).

If you don't know much about the President of the US, where have you been? Do you not watch the news or take any interest in current affairs?

I follow the news everyday in four languages. And no I don’t know much about the US president. We have different interests in news.


It sure sounds like one to me, and not a very informed one, but a rather mean one, directed towards our American friends.

No. Not a rant. This is important to us and affects our purchase decisions including cars such as the Tesla which is probably our favourite. I am certain that others may not feel this way but certainly where we are many others do. Mean?, I don’t have a mean bone in my body.

 

[sandpiper]

Down here on the ground (in Canada), we're already seeing significant price increases on raw steel, as well as availability challenges as US steel consumers madly shift around supply sources. And US steel consumers are crapping themselves.

What a bloody mess. The US president has far too much unchecked power. That he can trump up (pun intended) some thinly veiled BS about Canada, Mexico and the EU being a security concern is beyond insanity. The right target is another 'C' country that rhymes with "angina". But maybe Trump is leaving them alone because they're delivering on favours to his daughter.

What the heck is Canada going to do to the US? Maybe we're going to build an army of softwood lumber catapults and use them to launch beavers across the border into Buffalo? Maybe we'll send our single (barely) functional diesel sub down there to try to wedge itself into the drive impeller on an aircraft carrier?

It's like the "Knights of Ni". "What are you going to do? Bleed on me?"

What a bloody mess.

 

[Yggdrasill]

We have a global economy. Countries bypass tariffs all the time by changing 'point-of-origin' legally or illegally. The goal is to reestablish these industries.

Yeah, okay, so China isn't the target. The goal is to reestablish steel and aluminium industries in the US, to the detriment of Canada, the EU and other allies. Just so we're clear on that.

 

[McRat]

Yeah, okay, so China isn't the target. The goal is to reestablish steel and aluminium industries in the US, to the detriment of Canada, the EU and other allies. Just so we're clear on that.

China is the world's supplier of these two metals. EU, Canada, and others are now only blips on the radar. That ship already sailed, and the last administration invested in China instead doing their job. But it goes back further. Greedy American corps have lobbied against US interests and for Chinese interests for 30+ years now and Washington DC is easy to purchase.

And guess what? EU and Canada will lose their ability to produce these metals as well. China isn't just dominating the US, it's dominating the world. What China's cheap coal power produces, the EU and Canada cannot fight. Even if they could, China can lower the price to below cost. It's one of the perks of having an aggressive, well armed, totalitarian government. You can subsidize the destruction of competition.

The EU has proven time and time again, that they are willing to allow China to dominate them. And Canada is no better. China tells them to jump, and they ask "how high master!"

Canada would not be worried about US trade negotiations much if China wasn't already crapping all over them. But ... Canada wants China to dominate them or at least is not able to stop their politicians from selling the citizens out. If Canada can't sell aluminum, it's because they lost the market to the Chinese. Don't blame the US for that.

Before Canadians get too high an mighty about themselves, read up on how you've treated the Native Canadians. Full rights in 1982? Are you freakin' serious? Talk about Nationalist White Supremacists running the State, wow. The US is terrible in how we treat our original inhabitants, but they were given full rights 95 years ago, not in the Disco Era.

So 'nationalism' in Canada is insanely high, way past any form of decency. And they want to criticize the US for having nationalist tendencies. "You're not my pal, friend".

 

[Shock-On-T]

I don’t know why Americans aren’t freaking out that their president is trying to run the country by himself like bloody Gaddafi or something.
Leaning on the justice department, pardoning political allies, making unilateral trade decisions, putting family in government. Someone’s gotta get that joker back in line or the whole thing’s gonna unravel.

 

[McRat]

I don’t know why Americans aren’t freaking out that their president is trying to run the country by himself like bloody Gaddafi or something.
Leaning on the justice department, pardoning political allies, making unilateral trade decisions, putting family in government. Someone’s gotta get that joker back in line or the whole thing’s gonna unravel.

We have always had nepotism, pardoned for political reason, back door trade agreements paid for in small non-sequential bills.

So have most countries. Some still have Kings or Queens even.

And Australia is another country that didn't give full rights to the native people until modern times, 1983. So heavily white nationalists.

 

[Shock-On-T]

China is the world's supplier of these two metals. EU, Canada, and others are now only blips on the radar. That ship already sailed, and the last administration invested in China instead doing their job. But it goes back further. Greedy American corps have lobbied against US interests and for Chinese interests for 30+ years now and Washington DC is easy to purchase.

And guess what? EU and Canada will lose their ability to produce these metals as well. China isn't just dominating the US, it's dominating the world. What China's cheap coal power produces, the EU and Canada cannot fight. Even if they could, China can lower the price to below cost. It's one of the perks of having an aggressive, well armed, totalitarian government. You can subsidize the destruction of competition.

The EU has proven time and time again, that they are willing to allow China to dominate them. And Canada is no better. China tells them to jump, and they ask "how high master!"

Canada would not be worried about US trade negotiations much if China wasn't already crapping all over them. But ... Canada wants China to dominate them or at least is not able to stop their politicians from selling the citizens out. If Canada can't sell aluminum, it's because they lost the market to the Chinese. Don't blame the US for that.

Before Canadians get too high an mighty about themselves, read up on how you've treated the Native Canadians. Full rights in 1982? Are you freakin' serious? Talk about Nationalist White Supremacists running the State, wow. The US is terrible in how we treat our original inhabitants, but they were given full rights 95 years ago, not in the Disco Era.

So 'nationalism' in Canada is insanely high, way past any form of decency. And they want to criticize the US for having nationalist tendencies. "You're not my pal, friend".

Here, this might help: http://www.sparknotes.com/economics/

 

[sandpiper]

China is the world's supplier of these two metals. EU, Canada, and others are now only blips on the radar. That ship already sailed, and the last administration invested in China instead doing their job. But it goes back further. Greedy American corps have lobbied against US interests and for Chinese interests for 30+ years now and Washington DC is easy to purchase.

And guess what? EU and Canada will lose their ability to produce these metals as well. China isn't just dominating the US, it's dominating the world. What China's cheap coal power produces, the EU and Canada cannot fight. Even if they could, China can lower the price to below cost. It's one of the perks of having an aggressive, well armed, totalitarian government. You can subsidize the destruction of competition.

The EU has proven time and time again, that they are willing to allow China to dominate them. And Canada is no better. China tells them to jump, and they ask "how high master!"

Canada would not be worried about US trade negotiations much if China wasn't already crapping all over them. But ... Canada wants China to dominate them or at least is not able to stop their politicians from selling the citizens out.

Before Canadians get too high an mighty about themselves, read up on how you've treated the Native Canadians. Full rights in 1982? Are you freakin' serious? Talk about Nationalist White Supremacists running the State, wow. The US is terrible in how we treat our original inhabitants, but they were given full rights 95 years ago, not in the Disco Era.

So 'nationalism' in Canada is insanely high, way past any form of decency. And they want to criticize the US for having nationalist tendencies. "You're not my pal, friend".

I had hit like on the first half, and then undid it when I started to get into the second half.

Your point about China is correct. And the reality is that they only way to deal with China is to play hardball. It's the only game that they know.

Your point on Canada started out correct. But bear in mind where it comes from. US political interests like to use Canada as a bit of a whipping boy. And they've done so pretty much forever. So, for Canada to have any hope in getting fair trade terms with the US we need to have an option. The obvious customer is China. It's not ideological; it's pragmatic. If your bigger brother likes to beat on you when he's upset, and you know that you can't depend on him then you need to find another ally.

Trump isn't getting want he wants from China. So, he chooses to beat his chest and crap on his friends. One man's fragile ego is doing a lot of damage. China is a problem for all of us. An intelligent US leader would work to build consensus among his allies to deal with the real problem - and not just run around flinging feces like some pissed off toddler.

The bit about the natives and whatever else is unrelated to this discussion so I'll ignore it.

 

[Yggdrasill]

China is the world's supplier of these two metals. EU, Canada, and others are now only blips on the radar. That ship already sailed, and the last administration invested in China instead doing their job. But it goes back further. Greedy American corps have lobbied against US interests and for Chinese interests for 30+ years now and Washington DC is easy to purchase.

And guess what? EU and Canada will lose their ability to produce these metals as well. China isn't just dominating the US, it's dominating the world. What China's cheap coal power produces, the EU and Canada cannot fight. Even if they could, China can lower the price to below cost. It's one of the perks of having an aggressive, well armed, totalitarian government. You can subsidize the destruction of competition.

Almost all of Chinas steel and aluminium production is for domestic consumption. In 2017, 8.8% of steel production was exported. If you deduct imports, that drops to 7.2%. Aluminum exports are around 15%, which drops to basically nil when you deduct imports.

So, even if there were an embargo against China, disallowing the export of steel and aluminium, steel production would drop by about 7% and aluminium production would be unchanged.

 

[Unpilot]

We have always had nepotism, pardoned for political reason, back door trade agreements paid for in small non-sequential bills.

So have most countries. Some still have Kings or Queens even.

And Australia is another country that didn't give full rights to the native people until modern times, 1983. So heavily white nationalists.

Whataboutism at its finest .
Kellyanne Conway..is that you?

 

[McRat]

...

The bit about the natives and whatever else is unrelated to this discussion so I'll ignore it.

No, it is core political philosophy. How far is the government and the people willing to go in the name of 'nationalism'?

The US is less nationalist than most countries. That's just a popular leftist illusion.

 

[sandpiper]

Almost all of Chinas steel and aluminium production is for domestic consumption. In 2017, 8.8% of steel production was exported. If you deduct imports, that drops to 7.2%. Aluminum exports are around 15%, which drops to basically nil when you deduct imports.

So, even if there were an embargo against China, disallowing the export of steel and aluminium, steel production would drop by about 7% and aluminium production would be unchanged.

Perhaps, but also irrelevant. You don't need a lot of excess to drive down world prices. That 7.2% is 14.5% of the rest of the world's total capacity. If (as is claimed) a large part of that is dumping of overcapacity at below cost, then that's a major problem and it can seriously damage steel production elsewhere. It should be note that Canada doesn't even warrant a piece of pie. The terrifying and dangerous Canadian steel industry is part of "other".

 

[hacer]

Prior to last year, US trade was used as a bargaining chip for political goals and donations to the detriment of the taxpayers.

Now? It's time to negotiate trade as a business function, not a path to lining one's pockets in the name of politics.

Politicians often go in poor, and come out rich. That's not in the citizen's best interests and it's time to stop.

Let's see, ZTE creates an actual national security threat by exporting sensitive US technology to Iran but will not be sanctioned because China agreed to give trademarks to Trumps daughter and China also agreed to develop a new theme park right next to a Trump hotel.

Yeah right, that's really national security interest and not personal gain.

But somehow Canada, Mexico and the EU represent a security threat to the US.

In all likelihood this is Trump fulfilling his obligations to Russia to destroy our military alliances across the globe, also for personal gain.

 

[sandpiper]

No, it is core political philosophy. How far is the government and the people willing to go in the name of 'nationalism'?

The US is less nationalist than most countries. That's just a popular leftist illusion.

We're talking about economics, tariffs, steel and looney tunes US leadership. It's irrelevant.

 

[sandpiper]

Let's see, ZTE creates an actual national security threat by exporting sensitive US technology to Iran but will not be sanctioned because China agreed to give trademarks to Trumps daughter and China also agreed to develop a new theme park right next to a Trump hotel.

Yeah right, that's really national security interest and not personal gain.

But somehow Canada, Mexico and the EU represent a security threat to the US.

In all likelihood this is Trump fulfilling his obligations to Russia to destroy our military alliances across the globe, also for personal gain.

Someday there will be some interesting documentaries about this point in history. I think there will be a lot of things known then that would horrify us now.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I don’t know why Americans aren’t freaking out that their president is trying to run the country by himself like bloody Gaddafi or something.
Leaning on the justice department, pardoning political allies, making unilateral trade decisions, putting family in government. Someone’s gotta get that joker back in line or the whole thing’s gonna unravel.

We are freaking out. At least anyone who pays attention is. Unfortunately, most aren't.

 

[T34ME]

Served along side Americans for most of our military career. Surprised as hell that the American people now look at us as security risks and enemies. The world is changing.

Attitudes like this make Putin happy, very happy. With his manipulation of the American electorate in the last election, he was successful beyond his wildest dreams.

#RESIST

 

[Yggdrasill]

Perhaps, but also irrelevant. You don't need a lot of excess to drive down world prices. That 7.2% is 14.5% of the rest of the world's total capacity. If (as is claimed) a large part of that is dumping of overcapacity at below cost, then that's a major problem and it can seriously damage steel production elsewhere.

Price dumping is basically foreign aid. China's ten largest steel export markets are South Korea, Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Malaysia, Hong Kong and Myanmar. Why prevent China from providing foreign aid to these countries?

(The US concern that these countries are underpaying for steel is really heartwarming...)