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Audio: Sound System Quality?
- Thread starter STxTesla
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- Model S User Interface
Since there's a lot of discussion about the 'ideal' configuration, I've created a new thread to share our preferred settings. I know it's a very personal thing, but it might at least encourage some of us to try out other settings and be pleasantly surprised. Or not.
It's worth mentioning in this thread that during the press release last week Elon said the next software update has improved software audio drivers. I wonder what the details of that change are, if its just audio quality or if they've also made other improvements to the media functions. Also I wonder if any of us will be able to distinguish the audio quality improvements.
The new driver is called "power of suggestion", and though it is no different, there will be a huge debate here between those who think it sounds better/worse! Looking forward to hearing it!
Do we have any audiophiles on the forum with sensors and such so that we can get all scientificky* with this latest firmware adventure?
* Urban Dictionary: Scientificky
I have a SPL meter and various frequency sweep test tones that I use to dial in my audio settings. I have a Reus aftermarket install on the original Studio sound package base on a Signature S. My car may not be the best benchmark to use, but once I get 6.2 I'll do some critical listening as well as analysis on how smooth the frequency response is.
But a smooth frequency response doesn't necessarily translate into better 'sound'. There are just so many factors that go into a judgement of what someone thinks is good sound. Also for my fellow audiophiles out there, I understand that a flat frequency response doesn't necessary sound good, but I believe it is a good reference point to use. I try to see how close I can get with the EQ available via the touch screen and then vary it to match my personal preference from there.
For those who don't have any test instruments, a good way to test the quality of the audio in the car is to pick a track of music that you know really well and listen to it in the car. Then try to listen for key instruments or tones that seem pleasing. Then listen to the track again after your upgrade to 6.2 and see if you can notice any detail or tonality in the track that you didn't before. Unfortunately sonic memory can be very unreliable and the placebo effect can be strong, but at least it gives you something to try.
From my personal experience, over various software iterations that Tesla has pushed out, I have had to change the EQ in the Tesla audio controls to get similar sound results in my system, which would indicate they are doing something that is changing the sound that I perceive. I just have not taken the time to do any particular measurements, even though I have the gear. I do feel (this is my very subjective opinion) that the sound quality of the system I have has improved over time. But I can't tell you which version improved what specific aspect of the sound I've heard and I haven't taken the time to record and document it.
I have a couple of tracks of music that I have listened to for years and know extremely well and those are the reference tracks I always turn back to when I think there has been a tweak in the sound. But before that I'll try to do some objective listening via specific test tones and frequency sweep tracks I have to re-tune the system response to what I like and then listen to the music tracks to see how they validate what I thought I heard in the test tracks.
One thing I will also suggest is that you reboot your Touch screen as well as instrument cluster. This may be a placebo effect, but on occasion I feel that certain frequencies in my audio are diminished or sound muffled and a reboot will seem to improve the clarity of my sound. The feature of the car where you open the drivers door and the audio level drops would cause some funny frequency response issues after the sound would be restored to standard volume in earlier versions of the software and I was fairly confident that it was not my imagination. A reboot would usually fix the issue, so I am one who reboots my screens on a fairly regular basis, but mostly to try to make sure my audio system is functioning properly. I don't believe the door volume issue is there any more, but on occasion I think the response of my system has changed and I'll reboot it to clear out any potential issues.
My car seems to be receiving recent updates about 2 to 4 weeks after they are first reported, so I may not get 6.2 for awhile still. But this will give me some time to do more critical listening on 6.1 and get that into my sonic memory as much as possible.
bancroftc
Member
Bumping this thread.
Does anyone know what the subwoofer actually looks like on the UHFS for a late 2015 Model S? I realize where it is (or supposed to be), but on my car there is no evidence of a subwoofer other than the space taken up in the trunk on the right side. Meaning I have a cubby on the left for my charging stuff, but that void is filled in on the right and just covered in carpet. No ports or speaker grills or any evidence of a subwoofer. Any thoughts on this? Every enclosed subwoofer I've ever seen has one or multiple ports on the back and I'm not seeing anything like that.
I do have XM so that was my cue that I actually have the UHFS when I took delivery, but now I'm wondering if there is actually a speaker back there.
Thoughts?
Does anyone know what the subwoofer actually looks like on the UHFS for a late 2015 Model S? I realize where it is (or supposed to be), but on my car there is no evidence of a subwoofer other than the space taken up in the trunk on the right side. Meaning I have a cubby on the left for my charging stuff, but that void is filled in on the right and just covered in carpet. No ports or speaker grills or any evidence of a subwoofer. Any thoughts on this? Every enclosed subwoofer I've ever seen has one or multiple ports on the back and I'm not seeing anything like that.
I do have XM so that was my cue that I actually have the UHFS when I took delivery, but now I'm wondering if there is actually a speaker back there.
Thoughts?
Yes its there. Here is a link to a "how to" video of removing it. That should answer your question.
Model S Premium Audio System: How To Videos
Model S Premium Audio System: How To Videos
yea you can feel it with your hand if you go in the trunk well and put your hand underneath the opening on the bottom right.
In 2012 I had a deposit on Midel S, pulled it after a few months, then placed one on another Model S about 8 months later, changed that to a Model X ...which was delayed. So I pulled that. And oddly I put $ down in a MS 70D which is waiting for me in Denver.
so 4 years later, I am revisiting this thread.
so... now I am committed to getting good sound in MS.
Interesting to see Gavin from Light Harmonuc working on this. I have been an audio tuner for Chapman Audio Systems for the past few years, and one of the first shows I helped tune at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach was with MIT cables, Chapman speakers , and Light Harmonic. I just met Gavin a year earlier when he worked at MIT cables and was just launching Light Harmonics DaVinci DAC ($20,000) and split room costs with Chapman and MIT .
We we only worked with Gavin for the one show, but I see him at headfi meets and at RMAF , CES ETC.
I continued to tune for Chapman, though I somewhat changed the focus temporarily from using very expensive gear to proving that we could still get great sound with a wide variety of LESSER gear at much lower price points. Of course having an unlimited budget helps, but for me , when competing against 409 other vendors at these shows to get the room with the best sound, it was more exciting to do battle with less.
There was some mention in this thread early on of the MS -8 which was a JBL product developed at Harmon with an engineer, Andy Weymeyer - he recently left to start his own car speaker company , maybe it was Frog? Anyhow, I have heard that unit at some SOCAL high end car meets I attended and it does work well, it isn't as quite good sounding as the better tuned systems with ton of money thrown at them, but does sound better than 80% or more of most people's attempts to get high fidelity out of a car tuning their aftermarket gear by ear or using an RTA or other tuning accessories.
I'm low tech. All my systems audio show and in car are done by ear. I just try to make Steinways sound like Steinways, and not Baldwins or Yamahas, and I tune to get proper vocals, percussive impact , and correct Overhang. I have a system using a bunch of songs from different artists in different studios to try to get the vast majority of music to sound , well, musical...and not like a sound system.
Every recording has different mic'ing, there are so different mastering studios, different engineers...my job is to try to make as much of it as possiblle sound convincingly real, emotionally involving- to connect you with the artiist so it seems they are
not just singing,
not just singing at you,
but singing expressly for you
..trying to connect and hold you attention intimately .
That's when listening fatigue gets banished , and you just want to keep on playing.
So....
I'm going to take a different route for MS. I am not going to try and integrate with the car system at all.
I will be installing a second system in the car, completely separate from the stock system. Though I might share some speaker locations.
I will use traditional car audio components but ones of very high quality. Ones that I have used with incredible success in my 1994 E500 Mercedes.
A Nakamichi TP-1200 head unit with remote preamp ( special shop high end edition) McIntosh MC4000M amp (2) for 12 channels at 2000 watts.
What is significant about using these amps is 110db s/n ratio, and incredibly low distortion at all frequencies 20-20kHz ( not just at 1kHz at full output...even at low outputs they measure very well) , I'll have several sources. An iPhone 6s with a CEntrance SKYN that can do 24/192 ( they are unfortunately late on delivering this indiegogo project - almost 1 year late), a Aqua Acoustic Quality La Voce DAC.
Though DSD can produce good results , I find there are fewer good sounding DSD files than I feel worthwhile to support this format. I suppose they really have to get the DSD recordings right without so much post production done in PCM. So I am just going to use R2R ladder DACS that are bit perfect that run PCM only. Call me strange, but some of the better car audio tape players like the Nakamichi Td 1200 sounded really good, so I wish I had analog. I'm going to run the interface off an iPad.
ok, slacker...
Not impressed.
My suggestion is for Tesla people to try TidalHiFi. The tidal app is on iOS and android devices, you can run it with chrome too off your laptop. 16 bit 44.1 Redbook signal. Forget slacker. Go USB IN, NO BLUETOOTH.
Errr... is tidal. Good as a CD or FLAC off USB?
In tests at home, no. It is close, but no, it is not as good. I have a $22,000 MSB Analog DAC full stack with 7 separate power supplies and the MSB UMT+ which features full reclocking with a Femto clock accurate to 1 millionth of a billionth of a second. It is supposed to make all sources sound identical once it reclocks. Havent tested tidal there, but in other tests on more normal audiophile systems with tidal vs CD - the CD just edges out Tidal for warmth, midbass clarity and vocal presence....though Tidals low end and high frequency response is quite good.
Also you can download Tidal OFFLINE to your phone or iOS device and it is about 1/2 the space since it is in lossless. So a 128 GB iphone and 128 GB IPad can hold about 200 GB OF LOSSLESS ( leaving some room for iOS and photos) which is about 400GB of music WITHOUT USING MOBILE DATA. and if that isn't enough you can always add a Seagate hard drive with its own wifi. And you can augment on the fly with 4G data and tidal.
I will probably use Scan Speak drivers for mids, an proprietary tweeter for highs, not sure about the doors, and luckily it looks like there is just enough airspace and space in the rear trunk well to support (3) 10" dual 6 ohm voice coil subs.
I have had really great sound results using outboard parametric EQ ( IMHO I think the DSP and parametric in head units is rarely worth using because it doesn't meet a good quality level ) so I use the McIntosh analog parametric EQ MODULES that store their settings to be repeatable. I happen to like EQ and AMPLIFICATION by McIntosh for car but do not consider their head units or outboard DACS to be in the same league sound quality wise.
I am extremely concerned about motor induced noise and car computer entering the system from the 12 power supply. Also I'm not sure how much juice I can suck down . But IMHO compared to the tesla drive motor requirements the sound systems consumption even at fairly loud listening levels is insignificant. I will only be running such large amps because:
1. I already own them
2. I think they look awesome
3. I'll have limitless dynamic headroom because at most listening levels I'll only be using a few watts.
4. There are times when I like to blast for friemds and turn the car into a stationary amusement park ride.
i think even a 2 X 100 or 4 X 100 watt McIntosh amp would be sufficient. I like having my hearing.
Ahem, certainly this approach is old school , just high quality gear, I would like to use MIT WIRE I love their high end stuff but budget will force analysis plus 12 AWG wire because I already own hundreds of feet of it. Unless Bruce Brisson of MIT CABLES gave me a killer deal on wire , I'll have to use what I have, which really does sound very good.
AS for my goals, if you do a search on google for "Chapman + AVS showrooms" you can see me exhausted after a week of doing a system demo at CES 2013.
Show Vegas 2014 Vids 2
Somehow I do have an ear for this, and The Absolute Sound Magazine says I create music in rooms of size and shape that defeat most, and I gotta say the car is a tough room, but I have gotten insanely good high end home megabuck audiophile sound in a car.
I never thought it was possible until I heard it myself.
My first world problem is, I get to where I am going way ahead of time....and end up being late because I just have to play ....one more song. Red lights delight me. Traffic is welcome. And for once the letters of a Toyota Camry in front of m don't spell " In my way " when jumbled.
so 4 years later, I am revisiting this thread.
so... now I am committed to getting good sound in MS.
Interesting to see Gavin from Light Harmonuc working on this. I have been an audio tuner for Chapman Audio Systems for the past few years, and one of the first shows I helped tune at T.H.E. Show Newport Beach was with MIT cables, Chapman speakers , and Light Harmonic. I just met Gavin a year earlier when he worked at MIT cables and was just launching Light Harmonics DaVinci DAC ($20,000) and split room costs with Chapman and MIT .
We we only worked with Gavin for the one show, but I see him at headfi meets and at RMAF , CES ETC.
I continued to tune for Chapman, though I somewhat changed the focus temporarily from using very expensive gear to proving that we could still get great sound with a wide variety of LESSER gear at much lower price points. Of course having an unlimited budget helps, but for me , when competing against 409 other vendors at these shows to get the room with the best sound, it was more exciting to do battle with less.
There was some mention in this thread early on of the MS -8 which was a JBL product developed at Harmon with an engineer, Andy Weymeyer - he recently left to start his own car speaker company , maybe it was Frog? Anyhow, I have heard that unit at some SOCAL high end car meets I attended and it does work well, it isn't as quite good sounding as the better tuned systems with ton of money thrown at them, but does sound better than 80% or more of most people's attempts to get high fidelity out of a car tuning their aftermarket gear by ear or using an RTA or other tuning accessories.
I'm low tech. All my systems audio show and in car are done by ear. I just try to make Steinways sound like Steinways, and not Baldwins or Yamahas, and I tune to get proper vocals, percussive impact , and correct Overhang. I have a system using a bunch of songs from different artists in different studios to try to get the vast majority of music to sound , well, musical...and not like a sound system.
Every recording has different mic'ing, there are so different mastering studios, different engineers...my job is to try to make as much of it as possiblle sound convincingly real, emotionally involving- to connect you with the artiist so it seems they are
not just singing,
not just singing at you,
but singing expressly for you
..trying to connect and hold you attention intimately .
That's when listening fatigue gets banished , and you just want to keep on playing.
So....
I'm going to take a different route for MS. I am not going to try and integrate with the car system at all.
I will be installing a second system in the car, completely separate from the stock system. Though I might share some speaker locations.
I will use traditional car audio components but ones of very high quality. Ones that I have used with incredible success in my 1994 E500 Mercedes.
A Nakamichi TP-1200 head unit with remote preamp ( special shop high end edition) McIntosh MC4000M amp (2) for 12 channels at 2000 watts.
What is significant about using these amps is 110db s/n ratio, and incredibly low distortion at all frequencies 20-20kHz ( not just at 1kHz at full output...even at low outputs they measure very well) , I'll have several sources. An iPhone 6s with a CEntrance SKYN that can do 24/192 ( they are unfortunately late on delivering this indiegogo project - almost 1 year late), a Aqua Acoustic Quality La Voce DAC.
Though DSD can produce good results , I find there are fewer good sounding DSD files than I feel worthwhile to support this format. I suppose they really have to get the DSD recordings right without so much post production done in PCM. So I am just going to use R2R ladder DACS that are bit perfect that run PCM only. Call me strange, but some of the better car audio tape players like the Nakamichi Td 1200 sounded really good, so I wish I had analog. I'm going to run the interface off an iPad.
ok, slacker...
Not impressed.
My suggestion is for Tesla people to try TidalHiFi. The tidal app is on iOS and android devices, you can run it with chrome too off your laptop. 16 bit 44.1 Redbook signal. Forget slacker. Go USB IN, NO BLUETOOTH.
Errr... is tidal. Good as a CD or FLAC off USB?
In tests at home, no. It is close, but no, it is not as good. I have a $22,000 MSB Analog DAC full stack with 7 separate power supplies and the MSB UMT+ which features full reclocking with a Femto clock accurate to 1 millionth of a billionth of a second. It is supposed to make all sources sound identical once it reclocks. Havent tested tidal there, but in other tests on more normal audiophile systems with tidal vs CD - the CD just edges out Tidal for warmth, midbass clarity and vocal presence....though Tidals low end and high frequency response is quite good.
Also you can download Tidal OFFLINE to your phone or iOS device and it is about 1/2 the space since it is in lossless. So a 128 GB iphone and 128 GB IPad can hold about 200 GB OF LOSSLESS ( leaving some room for iOS and photos) which is about 400GB of music WITHOUT USING MOBILE DATA. and if that isn't enough you can always add a Seagate hard drive with its own wifi. And you can augment on the fly with 4G data and tidal.
I will probably use Scan Speak drivers for mids, an proprietary tweeter for highs, not sure about the doors, and luckily it looks like there is just enough airspace and space in the rear trunk well to support (3) 10" dual 6 ohm voice coil subs.
I have had really great sound results using outboard parametric EQ ( IMHO I think the DSP and parametric in head units is rarely worth using because it doesn't meet a good quality level ) so I use the McIntosh analog parametric EQ MODULES that store their settings to be repeatable. I happen to like EQ and AMPLIFICATION by McIntosh for car but do not consider their head units or outboard DACS to be in the same league sound quality wise.
I am extremely concerned about motor induced noise and car computer entering the system from the 12 power supply. Also I'm not sure how much juice I can suck down . But IMHO compared to the tesla drive motor requirements the sound systems consumption even at fairly loud listening levels is insignificant. I will only be running such large amps because:
1. I already own them
2. I think they look awesome
3. I'll have limitless dynamic headroom because at most listening levels I'll only be using a few watts.
4. There are times when I like to blast for friemds and turn the car into a stationary amusement park ride.
i think even a 2 X 100 or 4 X 100 watt McIntosh amp would be sufficient. I like having my hearing.
Ahem, certainly this approach is old school , just high quality gear, I would like to use MIT WIRE I love their high end stuff but budget will force analysis plus 12 AWG wire because I already own hundreds of feet of it. Unless Bruce Brisson of MIT CABLES gave me a killer deal on wire , I'll have to use what I have, which really does sound very good.
AS for my goals, if you do a search on google for "Chapman + AVS showrooms" you can see me exhausted after a week of doing a system demo at CES 2013.
Show Vegas 2014 Vids 2
Somehow I do have an ear for this, and The Absolute Sound Magazine says I create music in rooms of size and shape that defeat most, and I gotta say the car is a tough room, but I have gotten insanely good high end home megabuck audiophile sound in a car.
I never thought it was possible until I heard it myself.
My first world problem is, I get to where I am going way ahead of time....and end up being late because I just have to play ....one more song. Red lights delight me. Traffic is welcome. And for once the letters of a Toyota Camry in front of m don't spell " In my way " when jumbled.
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Just post as your own thread. Try to separate out the questions (how much power can you draw from what source, etc) from the setup. snip out the parts that aren't talking about this thread.
I'm still tempted by the Light Harmonics setup, especially since those guys are within a few miles of me.
I'm still tempted by the Light Harmonics setup, especially since those guys are within a few miles of me.
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