Aston Martin CEO says Ludicrous mode is stupid

[renim]

I honestly can't see Aston making a BEV Rapide.

I can, the CEO of Aston Martin is the most outspoken automotive proponent of EVs born in an OECD country. He was one of Carlos Ghosn lieutenants, and as an 2IC of Nissan was willing to go face to face with disappointed Phoenix wilting LEAF owners. That was when the leaf accounted for perhaps 5 in a 1,000 Nissan vehicle sales.

In September Nissan will upgrade the LEAF to 30kWh, that really feels like some of Andy's work.

this sounds like smack talk, good marketing etc.

 

[AWDtsla]

More likely they will be out of business than ship a BEV competitor to the Model S.

They sold less than 800 cars in 2014.

 

[dsm363]

That would be sad to see an iconic brand like that go under.

 

[Blu Zap]

@dsm363 +1
Agreed. We grew up admiring Aston Martins. Okay thank you James Bond. But all the same they are an iconic brand that, as a car enthusiast, hate to see go away.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Am all for an AM BEV. It'd be awesome to see Bond in one of those.

 

[ev-now]

Grew up in UK, AM is the only brand I'd aspire to own which was born in the UK like me (it's not a UK company anymore of course).

Won't be a popular opinion I suspect, but personally I think Ludicrous Mode is stupid and ludicrous.
The majority of regular sedan drivers cannot cope with the torque in a regular S85 - putting 'more in the hands of most people is simply inviting accidents.
If it were not for traction control and ABS, I am sure many more MS would have gone the way 911's used to within 10 miles of their dealership.

Tesla should focus on developing what they already have, the market-leading luxury electric vehicle by refining the luxury in the S, producing the X and then going mass-market with Gen 3.
The Roadster II is when they should concentrate on street-racing, if it's a market worth pursuing. And may be, just may be they should get into real track racing in the future to support the brand they may yet become.

Today they are wasting valuable resources bringing to market features that wow the press, but serve no useful purpose on a daily basis when there are clearly other things which need to be done. I know these are spin-offs of trying to improve range and battery use, but the effort and focus on 0-60 times is, IMO, very poorly placed with a brand which wants to tell you it has the safest car. 0-6 sub-3 seconds is a long tail attraction for a small segment of the population, the few owners who have tried to show me how fast their P85 can accelerate have not gotten close to demonstrating that kind of acceleration (which I know reasonably well from bikes of yesteryear) but have not looked safe or confident doing so.

Like I said, likely not a popular opinion

 

[AWDtsla]

Do you not understand "halo car"?

 

[smac]

I'm with you ev-soon.

The only logical reason I can see for them having gone down this path is to divert attention from the fact they are late on the X.

IMO the P85D was rushed out quite cynically as a diversion, and "Insane Mode" was great for column inches.... Unfortunately it hit the market before it was ready (torque sleep missing, not hitting the figures without blowing fuses, AutoPilot not doing what it claimed in the launch demo etc.). The long tail that actually wanted the performance they paid for got a little upset, and without expensive hardware fixes it can't be resolved.

"Ludicrous Mode" was born, as it would be a slam dunk to previous owners to demand retrofit of the fuses to their cars if this upgrade (/fix) wasn't even faster.

We are awaiting the VBOX numbers on a Ludicrous car, but it seems to truly get it to work you need a "pre-heat" cycle which can't be permanently left on. Without it I suspect the new pyrofuse enabled cars will be what the P85D was supposed to be.

Making matters worse Tesla have now set a precedent on 0-60 numbers and are about to launch the X. A vehicle which no doubt will be sold not to owners used to M5s and RS7's, but by ones used to Q7's and ML's. A soccer mum egged on by a car full of kids to demonstrate "Ludicrous Mode" on residential streets is quite literally an accident waiting to happen.

Frankly, it's all a mess. And all I will say is DARN YOU FALCON WING DOORS!!

- - - Updated - - -

Do you not understand "halo car"?

Yes And this why the P85D not hitting the numbers is a magnified problem.

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2015/8/24/Consumer-Reports-Tests-The-Tesla-P85D-Finds-It-Isn-t-All-That-Insane-7728827/

Besides as a % of sales, the P isn't like your typical halo car. It accounts for an extremely large portion of sales in industry terms. For every M3 BMW sell, there will be 1000's of diesels.

 

[RDoc]

Horses for courses. The Tesla is a very high performance street car. If you want a car for the track, it's not going to be very nice on the street.

- - - Updated - - -

Grew up in UK, AM is the only brand I'd aspire to own which was born in the UK like me (it's not a UK company anymore of course).

Won't be a popular opinion I suspect, but personally I think Ludicrous Mode is stupid and ludicrous.
The majority of regular sedan drivers cannot cope with the torque in a regular S85 - putting 'more in the hands of most people is simply inviting accidents.
If it were not for traction control and ABS, I am sure many more MS would have gone the way 911's used to within 10 miles of their dealership.

Tesla should focus on developing what they already have, the market-leading luxury electric vehicle by refining the luxury in the S, producing the X and then going mass-market with Gen 3.
The Roadster II is when they should concentrate on street-racing, if it's a market worth pursuing. And may be, just may be they should get into real track racing in the future to support the brand they may yet become.

Today they are wasting valuable resources bringing to market features that wow the press, but serve no useful purpose on a daily basis when there are clearly other things which need to be done. I know these are spin-offs of trying to improve range and battery use, but the effort and focus on 0-60 times is, IMO, very poorly placed with a brand which wants to tell you it has the safest car. 0-6 sub-3 seconds is a long tail attraction for a small segment of the population, the few owners who have tried to show me how fast their P85 can accelerate have not gotten close to demonstrating that kind of acceleration (which I know reasonably well from bikes of yesteryear) but have not looked safe or confident doing so.

Like I said, likely not a popular opinion

Do you actually drive an S85? We use the acceleration of our S85D quite often and are very glad to have it.

 

[techmaven]

The Model S dual motor drivetrain upgrades directly reflect the developmental needs of the Model X.

ICE car manufacturers have utilized racing as a means to further the developmental work in both performance and reliability. Performance means both quicker/faster and more efficient and longer lasting. Tesla doesn't use racing for this for a number of reasons, but the high performance developmental work goes hand in hand with reliability and efficiency improvements. The Ludicrous pyrotechnic fuse upgrade is very expensive today, but might be a standard feature in the future.

Further, Tesla needs to make as much money per vehicle and per cell as reasonably possible in order to further its long term goals. As we have seen with the Cadillac ELR, without some performance attraction, it would be very difficult to maintain the ASP that Tesla commands today.

Given the specific energy of the cells and therefore the need to have a large number of kWh in the pack, the resulting "safe" discharge c-rate is at least 4 * 70 = 280 kW or 385 hp. If you hooked it up to a 200 hp motor, you probably have negligible efficiency gain over a 350 hp motor. You could probably change the gearing somewhat, but again, efficiency likely doesn't change much.

 

[3mp_kwh]

RE: Aston -

They sold less than 800 cars in 2014.

Right. So we know there is hardly anything to cannibalize, and that makes production of a potentially lower margin, high end, electric more likely.

Because it is so easy to take care of the soccer Moms and people who don't care for extra performance, I don't understand why having a couple extra steps, to turn off a nanny mode, is that big a deal for those who'd want it. Default back to bus-mode, at restart. We aren't talking about high cost add-ons. The Tesla isn't a track car, but there are those who prefer adapting to just one car, nonetheless, whose ownership experience, and loyalty, can still be defined by the 5% of the time they want to put a smile on their face. Car companies thrive on this "5%". Not offering it invites lost sales. Why?

 

[smac]

RE: Aston -
Right. So we know there is hardly anything to cannibalize, and that makes production of a potentially lower margin, high end, electric more likely.

Why lose the "traditionalist allure", with massive risks, for lower margin?

To me an AM is about exclusivity, ultra high quality materials, attention to detail, and "modern classic" if not cutting edge vibe. It's almost the polar opposite to Tesla's brand values.

Assuming they are profitable even with low numbers (which is a plus), but high margins why wouldn't they want to maintain status quo? Maybe their shareholders are happy with the risk/reward as it stands?

So I still think they will do the bare minimum to meet regulatory requirements, and very likely buy in an off the shelf PHEV kit from Bosch, if forced for compliance.

Of course they could "average out" with a sub-brand compliance car. Anyone remember this: Aston Martin Cygnet 2011-2013 Review | Autocar

In fact maybe Tesla could see this as an opportunity and do a JV with them. TM do the drive train, AM do the interiors and suspension, brand it as an AM and charge 3x as much. I bet they'd have an order book out into 2030.

 

[AWDtsla]

RE: Aston -
Right. So we know there is hardly anything to cannibalize, and that makes production of a potentially lower margin, high end, electric more likely.

No, it makes it extremely unlikely unless Tesla is willing to sell them drivetrain parts, and the CEO just burned that bridge.

You realize Aston buys most of the car from other people, like the engine from BMW.

Because it is so easy to take care of the soccer Moms and people who don't care for extra performance, I don't understand why having a couple extra steps, to turn off a nanny mode, is that big a deal for those who'd want it. Default back to bus-mode, at restart. We aren't talking about high cost add-ons. The Tesla isn't a track car, but there are those who prefer adapting to just one car, nonetheless, whose ownership experience, and loyalty, can still be defined by the 5% of the time they want to put a smile on their face. Car companies thrive on this "5%". Not offering it invites lost sales. Why?

While I agree strongly, don't know what this has to do with this thread.

 

[ev-now]

Do you actually drive an S85? We use the acceleration of our S85D quite often and are very glad to have it.

EV-SOON, the hint is in the name. I have driven S85, and I have friends who own P85s and S85 - my point is that while they are "hitting it", they are not actually getting near the 5.4 or 4.2 they have.
And many people's attention/awareness/reaction times are not suited to such acceleration - let alone the number of people on the roads (in any vehicle) who do not adjust their driving to the current road conditions.
Add that lot together and the obsession with 0-60 is simply unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

But as you say, horses for course. I have raced on track in cars and on bikes, and have completed police pursuit driving courses, so I feel (probably unreasonably) confident in my handling of vehicles - many people with this torque have no such experience.
@smac's "soccer mom being egged on" would be funny if it were not already on YouTube with many other MS being rapidly accelerated in what are clearly neighborhood roads ...

 

[Brightonuk]

I disagree. I've never ever taken a car to a track.

Taking the car to the track is 30 mins that is more fun than laughing

Taking the car to the drag strip is 12.5 seconds that is more fun than laughing.

Driving on the highway showing you can beat the cockinabeamer got old after a few months.

 

[wannamodels]

Taking the car to the track is 30 mins that is more fun than laughing

Taking the car to the drag strip is 12.5 seconds that is more fun than laughing.

Driving on the highway showing you can beat the cockinabeamer got old after a few months.

+1 on taking the car to the track - and to add - this is the best place to learn the limits of your car...most likely with an instructor sitting shotgun if you're a noob to the track. Maybe the tesla can't take 2 laps at nurburgring, but I'm sure it can handle a few at a normal length track like Laguna Seca...or almost anything else.
+1 on the drag strip - never been but now I might take the 85D :wink:
+1 on the beamercock's, LOL - Does that ever get old? ...But only when other traffic is nil...


Also, just a bit more back on track with the OP...
this is the stats for the 800HP 2017 Electric Aston:
(from: Aston Martin CEO Confirms 2017 Arrival Of 800 HP Rapide Electric Car | Inside EVs)
Within two years, so by late 2017, Aston Martin intends to introduce an all-electric Rapide. A few assumptions were made in Automotive News article:

• Rapide EV in 2017
• price range from $200,000 to $250,000
• all-wheel drive
• 800 hp
• some 200 miles of range
• batteries from established manufacturer (possibly LG Chem or Samsung, unlikely Panasonic)
• there is a test mule already on the road

um...am I missing something here? $200+k...wtf? who is being stupid here. Sure Ludicrous (or maybe faster) is built-in to their new car and no "button" called ludicrous mode but OMG! For $200 I would take a P85D and my 2002 911 setup for the track...between those two I would have much more fun at the track and then free road trips and the usual charging for driving around town and commuting in the P85D. I'm sure his comment was aimed at the direction of Tesla's efforts...maybe even a jab at Elon. Just someone trying to get headlines...grasping at straws to sell his car that won't exist for *at least* another 2 years.

 

[danni]

Taking the car to the track is 30 mins that is more fun than laughing

Taking the car to the drag strip is 12.5 seconds that is more fun than laughing.

Driving on the highway showing you can beat the cockinabeamer got old after a few months.

I know it's great fun, but I'm just not up for doing it in a big family car. I have driven fast family cars on track and while it's fun for a bit there's just not much of a point to it in the long run (here's a video of me driving a Polestar-tuned Volvo V60 on a track: Bankörning med Volvo V60 T6 AWD Polestar Black R - YouTube). You're not going to get the most out of either car or track. I have considered getting a used rear wheel drive two seater sports car (something like a Nissan 370Z or even a Mazda Miata) to do some modifications on and use as a track car. But it's not really prioritized for me at this time.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I drive my car on the streets, not on a track.

Obviously Tesla is eating into their market, which makes Aston a little testy and a little jelly.

Like a $250,000 Aston is any threat to a Tesla at half the price. Good lord.

 

[JonG]

No, it makes it extremely unlikely unless Tesla is willing to sell them drivetrain parts, and the CEO just burned that bridge.

You realize Aston buys most of the car from other people, like the engine from BMW.



While I agree strongly, don't know what this has to do with this thread.

As an Aston Martin owner I can't help but smile at some of the errors in this thread

AM make their own engines although they have recently signed a deal with Mercedes for future power plants. The v8 engine is loosely related to a jaguar engine.

'Stock Astons' is an interesting term as from the factory you can get anything from a 430bhp v8 with steel brakes to close to 600bhp, carbon ceramic brakes and much more track focused and that's ignoring the multi million dollar Vulcan. They even do a 911 GT3 competitor.

The cars are heavy in general but they handle very well. The merc GT has adopted the same 10 year old design layout as the vantage and its speculated that this will be a shared platform going forward.

The point about handling is that an Aston owner wants a car with a lot of character and depth, a drag race is very limited. Just compare US Motorsport to European - we don't really go for high speed bowls or drag strips, we prefer handling circuits (and I acknowledge there are tracks like that in the U.S.). It's not better, it's different, but many an Aston owner will take their cars out for a very spirited 200 mile drive across Wales or into Scotland which a current tesla would struggle to do (irrespective of range). I doubt Palmer is worried about tesla, the Rapide is the worst seller in his range.

Im looking forward to sticking my 90D in the garage next to my Aston. They both have a place and if you can afford an Aston, a tesla as a daily driver is becoming increasingly common

 

[smac]

Jon I'm 100% onside with this!

I'm currently in an Exige V6 + the Tesla... However one day I will grow up and buy an AM, but the Tesla will probably stay as a DD

How does the saying go, "two countries divided by a common language"