Misinformation ruins everything Adam Ruins Everything (including his credibility) when he goes after Tesla and EVs with classic misinformation
Pretty decent response worth sharing, IMO:
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Misinformation ruins everything Adam Ruins Everything (including his credibility) when he goes after Tesla and EVs with classic misinformation
But that's the point isn't it? Those byproducts are usually byproducts that have little to no other value than as being burned in a process that creates heat. Hence they refine petroleum and instead of dumping those byproducts outside the refinery walls (or some other dump) they burn them to produce heat. That way you increase the CO2 emmisions and other pollutants by doing the refinery. If they would have have to pay hefty fees for the CO2 emmisions they would have used renewable electricity and stored the byproducts instead. And then the amount electricity would be around the 5-6kWh mark anyway.I covered that above. It's 6kWh of energy equivalent, mostly in the form of heat. Refining oil takes heat, which is created mostly by burning petroleum byproducts.
The Three Stages of Refining
But that's the point isn't it? Those byproducts are usually byproducts that have little to no other value than as being burned in a process that creates heat. Hence they refine petroleum and instead of dumping those byproducts outside the refinery walls (or some other dump) they burn them to produce heat. That way you increase the CO2 emmisions and other pollutants by doing the refinery. If they would have have to pay hefty fees for the CO2 emmisions they would have used renewable electricity and stored the byproducts instead. And then the amount electricity would be around the 5-6kWh mark anyway.
I saw 4.5kWh somewhere, and I thought it was a reputable source. What you're saying makes sense, but if you have a link I can hold onto, I'd appreciate it. I'm still looking for a solid, non-partisan, defensible position on full well-to-wheel costs, and I can't imagine that the entire oil supply chain is as efficient as they claim...Well no, creating heat indirectly from electricity would be much less efficient than directly burning those byproducts, and the amount of electricity used would be far higher. That fact remains that the statement "6kWh's of electricity per gallon" is false. It gives the impression that not refining that gallon of gas would leave 6kWh's of electricity availble for use in the grid, specifically in an EV. That's not true.
OK. You see that grey bar coming off of transportation? That's waste from the incredibly inefficient gasoline-burning engines. That's what electric cars eliminate. Point that out to people.
I saw 4.5kWh somewhere, and I thought it was a reputable source. What you're saying makes sense, but if you have a link I can hold onto, I'd appreciate it. I'm still looking for a solid, non-partisan, defensible position on full well-to-wheel costs, and I can't imagine that the entire oil supply chain is as efficient as they claim...
In a 2008 report, Argonne National Lab estimated that the efficiency for producing gasoline of an “average” U.S. petroleum refinery is between 84% and 88% (Wang, 2008), and Oak Ridge National Lab reports that the net energy content of oil is approximately 132,000 Btu per gallon (Davis, 2009). It is commonly known that a barrel of crude oil generate approximately 45 gallons of refined product (refer to NAS, 2009, Table 3-4 for a publication stating so). Thus, using an 85% refinery efficiency and the aforementioned conversion factors, it can be estimated that about 21,000 Btu—the equivalent of 6 kWh—of energy are lost per gallon of gasoline refined
Well creating heat from electricity is pretty much around 100% efficient, where else would the energy goWell no, creating heat indirectly from electricity would be much less efficient than directly burning those byproducts, and the amount of electricity used would be far higher. That fact remains that the statement "6kWh's of electricity per gallon" is false. It gives the impression that not refining that gallon of gas would leave 6kWh's of electricity availble for use in the grid, specifically in an EV. That's not true.
Can anyone verify that oil refineries require 4-6 kilowatts of power to refine each gallon of gasoline.
It came from an interview between Business Insider, Chris Paine, and Elon Musk
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/10/26/businessinsi...
BI: At least in the U.S., most electricity is generated using fossil fuels. Mostly natural gas and coal. What's the relative carbon footprint of a Roadster or Model S, against a gasoline car? I've heard that argument from people who worked in the oil industry.
Chris: It's funny they make that argument, because they're one of the largest users of electricity in the country, to refine gasoline. That's why the power cords go into refineries. Something like 4 to 6 kilowatt hours of electricity to refine every gallon of gasoline. They're pulling that electricity from the same source as they're critiquing on electric cars and they get much less result out of it.
Elon: Exactly. Chris has a nice way of saying it which is, you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining.
I did find this:
Estimation of Energy Efficiencies of U.S. Petroleum Refineries
They list how many equivalent barrels of oil go into the process via electricity, but there are many input products.
Refining gasoline is about 88% efficient. That is the end product has 88% of the energy that went into making it. A gallon of gasoline has between 32 and 35 KWh of energy per gallon and the EPA uses 33.7 KWh for it's calculations of MPGe.
The people who are arguing that electric vehicles are worse for the environment are comparing apples and oranges. In thermodynamics, to accurately compare two systems, you need to draw the boundaries around the two systems the same. There is a diagram of the energy efficiency from power generation to turning the wheels comparing an EV to fuel cell vehicles. There is a version here:
Toyoto vs Tesla - hydrogen fuel cell vehicles vs electric cars
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.. when US taxpayers lost $9.3bn under the TARP bailout & repayments? I'm disgusted that GM shareholders can be handed golden cookies that appear, to me, to belong to all of us...
there is a bunch of "hoohah" from Santos on SA about the gigafactory AND seriously dissing a ?Mechanical Engineer Randy Carlson's articles on the gigafactory
you got a kind "shout out" from Montana "potemkin village" Skeptic praising you for that ?exact? point. a dubious honor to some, praise from a ?lawyer?Unfortunately Randy's premise of in module cell aging was a complete flight of fancy which was never going to happen, which I told him at the time he published the article. Of course it will not have the effect that Paulo is claiming because it was never a real means for cost savings to begin with. Randy has gone off the rails with some of his speculative articles creating completely unlikely scenarios that really fail some basic engineering concepts.
Nonsense from bulls is no better than nonsense from bears and I'll call out both when appropriate. I have no problem if a bear credits me with speaking the truth. Randy's response further proves he doesn't know much at all about cell production.you got a kind "shout out" from Montana "potemkin village" Skeptic praising you for that ?exact? point. a dubious honor to some, praise from a ?lawyer?
you may want, or not, to read Randy's comment on the article
Rather than accomplishing cell cycling and capacity measurement / sorting within assembled battery packs, they have apparently eliminated these steps entirely.