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Hugh Mannity
Mediocre Member
sometimes i wonder if i am the only Tesla fan who does not mind going to the gas station. fill up, grab a drink/snack, mabye a lotto ticket. if i stop and think about big wordly issues revolving around hyrocarbns, maybe i feel something, but otherwise it is usually a pretty neutral experience.
Yes, I'm also not getting the negative part of this. Perhaps over time of ownership and contrast.
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What if a chain of existing gas stations put in an EV multi-standard charging station or two and charged (sorry) current (sorry) local electric kWh rates plus 30%? All transacted by ApplePay?
o/t but interesting question. Personally I'd just choose to charge elsewhere (just like I get drink/snacks elsewhere), because I don't want to subsidize gas stations at all, and lacking additional info I would assume they are not doing an extra effort to source the electricity from renewable sources directly or purchasing via RECs.
The question in my mind is why would you choose to charge there vs. anywhere else.
I recognize for some, sometimes, where to charge is not a "willful choice" just a mindless and/or circumstantial result.
PokerBroker
Member
Breathing fuel fumes is no fun, those snacks are generally bad for you, and lotto tickets are basically pointless. Sorry!
The thing that bothers me most when driving our ICEs is, perhaps surprisingly to me (probably not to you), the shake.
I don't think I ever paid any attention to it before, because of course I have - like most of us - "grown up" driving ICE. But now that I've been rolling in the P85 for a couple of months, the eerie smoothness of it all is perhaps the most significant single thing in the driving experience, when compared to ICE cars. The microscopic, yet constant and tiresome shake that ICE cars produce and transfer to your body through the seat and especially the steering wheel, it is completely gone in the Model S. And now that it is gone, I finally realize how unpleasant, unnecessary and unwanted it is.
I guess in the most extremest of range anxiety predicaments I might have wished for that shake to return in need, but other than that, I want it gone from my life completely. And even that range anxiety is mostly to do with lacking charging infrastructure - here in Europe in some places you probably could compare our EV pioneering situation to what the U.S. would have been maybe five years ago, since the whole EV thing sprung up much slower over here, no small thanks to the German car industry. Nothing wrong with the Model S range, not all ICEs have it much better, the problem is the lack of a compatible charging point in every corner (compared to gas stations). In many places in the U.S., things are probably better.
Of course that is not the only thing you won't miss once you go EV. Instant accleration makes every ICE seem a little broken when you try to press the gas pedal, you start at looking people queuing to gas stations a little pitifully, forgetting about turning cars on and off etc. And like some have said, once you start driving electric, you will probably notice this kind of stuff more and more, even if you never before did, because it changes things. All your life you have dutifully accepted a certain kind of normal for driving a car and then, suddenly, that normal is gone. The more you do the new, the less you want to go back to the old.
Personally, from a pure driving enjoyment point of view, I think buying a small-range electric hybrid (one that you can and would drive all-electric) would probably be one of the greatest forms of car-related torture one could inflict on themselves, because you get the experience the EV bliss, yet the minute you start enjoying it, it is taken away from you. It is even worse than buying a plain old ICE, because at least with ICE things keep constant (unless the car has one of those terrible auto on/off systems which make driving in city traffic almost a violent experience). The only way I would consider a hybrid, from a driving enjoyment point of view, is if its all-electric range is sufficient for your daily needs and thus the ICE would be there just for longer travel.
Now, as a final point (even though you've smartly decided to wait for the Model X), I think much of the response here missed the pragmatist point in your post, Nevek. If you need to go from A to B, and you need the size, safety and convenience of an SUV, one could hardly call the Porsche Cayenne eHybrid a bad car. Perhaps you would be one of those people that don't feel or experience the EV thing as strongly. Because I guarantee, once Model 3 hits, more and more people will use EV without really seeing these kinds of benefits. They just buy some car that is in their price range and perhaps like the cost of the mile. Not all will grow such a quasi-religious zeal or get a life changing, perception altering epiphany as many of us here (myself included) have and those people will be just fine with whatever type of propulsion.
I think in a thread like this, probably the most important point against the Porsche Cayenne eHybrid is that despite the creeping doubts long silences and delays cause, history has shown Tesla will eventually deliver, if you can wait out the delays - now probably no more than a year or so. I find it much more likely Tesla will deliver on the Model X within the year than that they wouldn't. Hence, unless you really must buy a car very soon, don't go for an alternative just because you fear Model X might not make it. You may feel very bad about your brand new Porsche when the Model X you really wanted starts shipping shortly after. Skipping Model X just because it feels uncertain is probably the wrong reason. Silence always precedes action in these things, one day, just as suddenly, the Model X will be here and just like that, the uncertainty gone. So, if you must buy something else, do so with the knowledge Model X is not that far away.
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Gas stations being the places where EV chargers first appear seems quite common over the pond, is that not so in the U.S.? Perhaps a difference how these things get subsidized.
In any case, I have no trouble charging at a gas station. I see that more of a bet on the future than towards the past. Even with EVs, we will need this kind of infrastructure and sooner those places are all electric, the better. If you consider the gas station more as a service station, it fills a need that will be there in an EV future as well.
As for finding the gas tank itself a little distasteful, I must admit once I've gone BEV, I find those rare ICE visits to the tank quite appalling.
I don't think I ever paid any attention to it before, because of course I have - like most of us - "grown up" driving ICE. But now that I've been rolling in the P85 for a couple of months, the eerie smoothness of it all is perhaps the most significant single thing in the driving experience, when compared to ICE cars. The microscopic, yet constant and tiresome shake that ICE cars produce and transfer to your body through the seat and especially the steering wheel, it is completely gone in the Model S. And now that it is gone, I finally realize how unpleasant, unnecessary and unwanted it is.
I guess in the most extremest of range anxiety predicaments I might have wished for that shake to return in need, but other than that, I want it gone from my life completely. And even that range anxiety is mostly to do with lacking charging infrastructure - here in Europe in some places you probably could compare our EV pioneering situation to what the U.S. would have been maybe five years ago, since the whole EV thing sprung up much slower over here, no small thanks to the German car industry. Nothing wrong with the Model S range, not all ICEs have it much better, the problem is the lack of a compatible charging point in every corner (compared to gas stations). In many places in the U.S., things are probably better.
Of course that is not the only thing you won't miss once you go EV. Instant accleration makes every ICE seem a little broken when you try to press the gas pedal, you start at looking people queuing to gas stations a little pitifully, forgetting about turning cars on and off etc. And like some have said, once you start driving electric, you will probably notice this kind of stuff more and more, even if you never before did, because it changes things. All your life you have dutifully accepted a certain kind of normal for driving a car and then, suddenly, that normal is gone. The more you do the new, the less you want to go back to the old.
Personally, from a pure driving enjoyment point of view, I think buying a small-range electric hybrid (one that you can and would drive all-electric) would probably be one of the greatest forms of car-related torture one could inflict on themselves, because you get the experience the EV bliss, yet the minute you start enjoying it, it is taken away from you. It is even worse than buying a plain old ICE, because at least with ICE things keep constant (unless the car has one of those terrible auto on/off systems which make driving in city traffic almost a violent experience). The only way I would consider a hybrid, from a driving enjoyment point of view, is if its all-electric range is sufficient for your daily needs and thus the ICE would be there just for longer travel.
Now, as a final point (even though you've smartly decided to wait for the Model X), I think much of the response here missed the pragmatist point in your post, Nevek. If you need to go from A to B, and you need the size, safety and convenience of an SUV, one could hardly call the Porsche Cayenne eHybrid a bad car. Perhaps you would be one of those people that don't feel or experience the EV thing as strongly. Because I guarantee, once Model 3 hits, more and more people will use EV without really seeing these kinds of benefits. They just buy some car that is in their price range and perhaps like the cost of the mile. Not all will grow such a quasi-religious zeal or get a life changing, perception altering epiphany as many of us here (myself included) have and those people will be just fine with whatever type of propulsion.
I think in a thread like this, probably the most important point against the Porsche Cayenne eHybrid is that despite the creeping doubts long silences and delays cause, history has shown Tesla will eventually deliver, if you can wait out the delays - now probably no more than a year or so. I find it much more likely Tesla will deliver on the Model X within the year than that they wouldn't. Hence, unless you really must buy a car very soon, don't go for an alternative just because you fear Model X might not make it. You may feel very bad about your brand new Porsche when the Model X you really wanted starts shipping shortly after. Skipping Model X just because it feels uncertain is probably the wrong reason. Silence always precedes action in these things, one day, just as suddenly, the Model X will be here and just like that, the uncertainty gone. So, if you must buy something else, do so with the knowledge Model X is not that far away.
- - - Updated - - -
Gas stations being the places where EV chargers first appear seems quite common over the pond, is that not so in the U.S.? Perhaps a difference how these things get subsidized.
In any case, I have no trouble charging at a gas station. I see that more of a bet on the future than towards the past. Even with EVs, we will need this kind of infrastructure and sooner those places are all electric, the better. If you consider the gas station more as a service station, it fills a need that will be there in an EV future as well.
As for finding the gas tank itself a little distasteful, I must admit once I've gone BEV, I find those rare ICE visits to the tank quite appalling.
First of all, Ranger, thanks very much for your thoughtful and well-reasoned reply on my original question, which of course was really asking "should I keep waiting for this new machine, the MX?". I've take the liberty of excerpting a few phrases from your post that resonated with me.
By way of background, I don't need to replace a car in the short term and am not lacking in transport. The reality is that I love computers, cars, gadgets and novelty. When casting about for my next diversion, the Tesla seemed check all the boxes. I would have taken your route with a MS for now but I just don't need a sedan.
Related to that, while I'm in favor of reducing my carbon footprint, I'm not willing to wear a hair-shirt to do it. I want space, comfort, performance, good looks, and ease of use in a vehicle and if the need can be met and make a small contribution to improving air quality, wonderful.
But it what I really want is my iPad with wheels and motor.
Thanks again for for your post, here and in the past. I enjoy reading them.
Oh, and in response to your question, I have not seen EV charging at traditional service stations here in the US. It seems like a natural extension of the business of selling energy, but perhaps that conflicts with other business needs of the providers.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
I suspect that, this being a rather litigious society, and having seen video of gasoline fumes igniting from mere static electricity, it has been determined that having a high voltage AC or DC charging station in close proximity to or sharing the premises with a gas station is probably not a good idea in the United States of America.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
The 70amp HPC for Roadster charging has been installed at the Harris Ranch Shell station for years. I've also charged at a 70amp HPC in Eugene, OR at Sequential Biofuels.
adiggs
Well-Known Member
Regarding EV charging at gas stations, it occurred to me that it probably also depends - a lot - on what kind of brand and/or ownership is behind the gas station in question.
When talking about locations operated by big oil (or limited by their franchise?), the end-result may be quite different when compared to more independent outlets or service stations whose primary mission is not the oil business.
When talking about locations operated by big oil (or limited by their franchise?), the end-result may be quite different when compared to more independent outlets or service stations whose primary mission is not the oil business.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
That would make sense, but the Shell station at Harris Ranch would definitely not fall into the 'independent outlet' category. Not only has the Roadster HPC been installed right at the station, their car wash just got swapped over to the beta battery swap station.
Well, if you only drove 20 miles or less a day 80% of the time and charged each night, the economics might be a little better than that. Also, having that small battery to pick up some of the braking energy normally lost as heat has a certain elegance, if not a great efficiency.
But very few would be buying the Cayenne for the economics, certainly.
Tedkidd
Member
Hadn't thought about it that way..
Even if you drove at least 20 miles every day it maxes gas savings at just $700 fuel savings a year.
Put that way it really does fall way short. Where's the beef?
I wonder how the Harris Ranch ownership/operation is structured? Is it a Shell operation or a franchise, or is it an independent operation that also happens to house Shell's gasoline tank? If it is the latter, it might be that Shell just rented a place for their tank there, or the Harris Ranch people operate a Shell franchise as an additional service in a small section of their lot. In this case things like the car wash might actually have nothing to do with Shell? To me it sounds like Harris Ranch is something Mr. Harris runs on his ranch, because it happens to be conveniently located on a major thoroughfare.
The closest to Harris Ranch I've been is the East Coast or Japan, so what do I know, just pondering.From what I read at the time of the original HPC installation, the charging station seemed to me an extension of the Harris Ranch restaurant and inn, they even mentioned patronage at the restaurant or inn as requirement for charging, thus it seemed to me an operation where the Shell part is a minor section of an independent hospitality establishment, so hosting EV charging wouldn't be contrary to their main business at all. If the place is "Harris Ranch" first, and only "happens" to have a Shell tank on the premises, things could be different compared to a regular Shell service station where the whole place is Shell branded.
Of course I'm also not discounting the possibility that some regular big oil gas stations decide to, perhaps already do, host EV charging, I just think it may be a bit less likely or happen slower there, compared to service stations whose owner's or franchiser's main business is not the oil part, but the service part instead.
The PiP has a jokey joke battery of 12 miles and it cut our fuel usage by 80%
But the remaining 20% *hurts*
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