Ads which illustrate why I am so pissed about Tesla's marketing of the 160

[stopcrazypp]

I agree with you that saying 90kW is too much power for the 40kWh battery is a little disingenuous since there shouldn't be a technical reason for not being able to dial down the power to what the 40kWh can handle. I believe that Tesla made this decision for business reasons that we may or may not ever hear about.

The warranty explanation that a member heard from a rep seems the most likely. I don't think it's mainly because Tesla wants to force people to buy the 60kWh pack. If you look over the options list, Tesla is keeping options fairly independent, so I don't think Tesla is really approaching it from that angle.

As for the acceleration issue. I believe that to be purely a technical limitation. If the motor is drawing energy from all the cells at one time (in parallel) and you reduce the number of cells that can be drawn from, then there must be a reduction in acceleration achievable.

Back when we knew the pack information, forum members (including me) already calculated the power output of the various packs. The 40kWh (was 42kWh back then) was the one that didn't seem like it'll have enough power to output the quoted 300kW peak of the motor (160kW @ 4C). Back then I guessed the reduced weight plus Tesla choosing cells with higher peak C-rate would address that issue, but I guess that didn't happen when things got finalized. Although, people in other threads have calculated that the 0-30mph should be still be identical among the packs based on the power difference.

 

[dsm363]

My refund is on it's way. Good luck to you guys and gals with your Model S, can't wait to see them out here in SoCal! Hopefully Tesla picks it up down the road and gets some vehicles in queue for the common man.

BTW, not leaving the forums, just leaving my Tesla reservation. I'm still very interested to see what happens with the S and X, maybe Tesla can win me back.

Glad you got your money back and good luck to you. Don't think Tesla would ever have been able to make you happy. Now that the specs are out there, you can always revisit things later.

I have a feeling that if you were this disappointed with Tesla for the performance and lack of Super Charging in their base $50,000 car, you will be less likely to be happy with whatever car they produce for the $30,000 car segment. The bluestar isn't supposed to come out for probably 4 years so it will be a wait.

 

[WhiteKnight]

. . . I don't think it's mainly because Tesla wants to force people to buy the 60kWh pack. If you look over the options list, Tesla is keeping options fairly independent, so I don't think Tesla is really approaching it from that angle.

Tesla absolutely wants people to "upgrade" to the 60 kWh and 85 kWh packs because it's an extra incremental $1,500-$2,500 for each upgrade (depending on what you think their margins are). I think it's incredible they have not done more in terms of denying certain options to smaller battery pack owners. 40 kWh buyers ought to be thanking Tesla and praising them for making almost every option available to them.

The reason a certain segment is vocally upset now that options and pricing have been released boils down to the gap between expectations and reality. You expected one thing, the reality is it's not what you expectedt. So you have to decide on downgrading from Sig to non-Sig or walk away altogether.

For the 98%+ of Americans who have never heard of Tesla they will never be confronted with the gap between expectation and reality because reality will be known from the beginning of their experience with Tesla. They will find the options and pricing perfectly reasonable and very attractive if they are shopping in this segment of the car market (IMO).

 

[TEG]

...Although, people in other threads have calculated that the 0-30mph should be still be identical among the packs based on the power difference.

FYI, LEAF has lots of low end torque, but rather power limited possibly in part due to ~24kWH pack.
The LEAF has a power meter front and center. If you hold the accelerator pedal all the way down it accelerates decently from 0-30 with the power meter slowly growing. (Keep in mind that power is related to torque and RPMs.) Once you hit the power peak, the acceleration gets less impressive and the power meter just stays pegged from that point forward. It just gives me a different view of that attribute of EV motor power & torque outputs where torque starts out high and stays flat until the RPMs dictate peak power point, and then it switches to torque reduction mode as RPMs continue rising to keep the power in check.

 

[EVNow]

FYI, LEAF has lots of low end torque, but rather power limited possibly in part due to ~24kWH pack.

One of the speculations is that it is because of range considerations, rather than the 24kWh pack. Afterall Nissan reportedly can run 2 motors in ESFlow with the same pack.

 

[EVNow]

40 kWh buyers ought to be thanking Tesla and praising them for making almost every option available to them.

I'd gladly trade every option for QC.

 

[dpeilow]

I'd gladly trade every option for QC.

Yep.

I think there is now a gap in the market between the (UK) £25k LEAF and probable £45k Model S. If Nissan put 10 grands worth more batteries in the LEAF platform, that would do me.

 

[WhiteKnight]

Yep.

I think there is now a gap in the market between the (UK) £25k LEAF and probable £45k Model S. If Nissan put 10 grands worth more batteries in the LEAF platform, that would do me.

I look at it from the opposite perspective. You can get this awesome fully loaded car that competes with the BMW 5-series and if you opt for the 40 kWH pack you get to save $20,000.

The Leaf is like an Electric Nissan Versa. You can't even get leather seats. I don't know why anyone is comparing the Model S with the Leaf. They're not even in the same solar system.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla absolutely wants people to "upgrade" to the 60 kWh and 85 kWh packs because it's an extra incremental $1,500-$2,500 for each upgrade (depending on what you think their margins are). I think it's incredible they have not done more in terms of denying certain options to smaller battery pack owners. 40 kWh buyers ought to be thanking Tesla and praising them for making almost every option available to them.

I realize they of course would rather have more 60kWh or 85kWh sales, but given they haven't tied up the options list with the pack capacity, I don't just feel that is the main reason why QC was left out for the 40kWh pack (there has to be other reasons too). From comments here, it seems the 60kWh pack is beyond the economic means of a lot of people who have locked in on the 40kWh pack, so it's not like that would have worked in the first place.

It's up to the 40kWh orders to get clarification from Tesla at this point and to get Tesla to hear their concerns.

 

[dpeilow]

I look at it from the opposite perspective. You can get this awesome fully loaded car that competes with the BMW 5-series and if you opt for the 40 kWH pack you get to save $20,000.

The Leaf is like an Electric Nissan Versa. You can't even get leather seats. I don't know why anyone is comparing the Model S with the Leaf. They're not even in the same solar system.

But then I'd have a BMW 5 Series class car which could do 115 motorway miles before requiring a 2.5 - 3 hour recharge... and no cash.


Besides, I didn't say LEAF, I said LEAF platform. A car based on that platform with perhaps 150 miles EPA range and CHAdeMO would be a more attractive proposition for me now. And who's to say that Nissan won't come out with interior options for the LEAF in the long run?

 

[Robert.Boston]

It's up to the 40kWh orders to get clarification from Tesla at this point and to get Tesla to hear their concerns.

Support for CHAdeMO DC charging (for all packs) would address many people's concerns with one stone.

 

[dpeilow]

Support for CHAdeMO DC charging (for all packs) would address many people's concerns with one stone.

Agreed

 

[Cobos]

Support for CHAdeMO DC charging (for all packs) would address many people's concerns with one stone.

Yes that would probably be enough for me, and to me it looks like in Norway (not continental Europe), support for ChadeMo is actually more important than 3-phase. By summer 2013 there should be a decent amount of quickchargers based on the ChadeMo standard.
I actually think the "problem" is the 8 year warranty on the 40kW pack. I'd rather they lowered that to 5 years or so and allowed us to misuse the pack a bit more or simply offered 8 years with a contract that says that drops to 5 years the first X times you quickcharge your pack. That would probably take away all the gnashing of teeth and let people decide more freely if they want to pay for the bigger pack.

Cobos

 

[jkirkebo]

I look at it from the opposite perspective. You can get this awesome fully loaded car that competes with the BMW 5-series and if you opt for the 40 kWH pack you get to save $20,000.

The Leaf is like an Electric Nissan Versa. You can't even get leather seats. I don't know why anyone is comparing the Model S with the Leaf. They're not even in the same solar system.

We have a Leaf and plan to get a Model S (in 2-3 years). We'll keep the Leaf too. Why not compare them ? Not everyone taht's interested in the Model S wants a "luxury" or performance car. I'll order the Model S with cloth seats because I don't like to sit in leather. I do not care about performance (so no Sport model) and the Leaf is the perfect size for us. The main reason for wanting a Model S is range. We need two cars and one of them needs to do the long-distance driving we are currently doing in a 2005 VW Touran 2.0TDI.

If Nissan puts out a Leaf 2.0 with twice the range before we get a Model S I will take a very serious look at it. So I'm definately comparing them (relative to our needs) and I suspect many others are doing the same.

 

[Norbert]

I look at it from the opposite perspective. You can get this awesome fully loaded car that competes with the BMW 5-series and if you opt for the 40 kWH pack you get to save $20,000.

The Leaf is like an Electric Nissan Versa. You can't even get leather seats. I don't know why anyone is comparing the Model S with the Leaf. They're not even in the same solar system.

That is very close to how I see it. Batteries are still very expensive, and Tesla's concept is to build a car of a class which is in a good relation to the cost of a long range electric car. At this time, a premium sedan.

However, many on this forum (including myself) are more interested in the "long range electric" part than in the "premium luxury" part. (I'm saying simply "long range" but depending on context this includes supercharging which extends the range further). The degree, to which it is important for our personal use, varies, yet in any case, we understand the ability of "long range" to be a requirement for electric cars to go mainstream. Plus, even if we could rent a car, we would like to do the occasional long trip without using oil again, in the "comfort" of our own car.

Although the 40 kWh option, with a range of 160 miles at 55 mph, has a better range (with home-charging only) than any other non-Tesla EV that I am aware of, it probably makes more financial sense, in terms of "how much do I get for my money", for someone interested in the "premium luxury" part, than for someone interested *only* in the "electric" part.

So for someone who is interested only in the "electric" part, and compares the Leaf to the 40 kWh Model S, things may look like a mismatch.

It needs to be pointed out that the Leaf doesn't make profit (yet), as far as we know, and that is even for a mass-production experienced company as Nissan is. Even with the tax credits, Nissan can only sell the Leaf, below profit, because it is a huge company (in comparison) selling lots of other "stuff". So even if Tesla wanted to, attempting to directly compete with the Leaf, at this point in time, would probably be Tesla's end of existence. In the unlikely case that Tesla would be able to manage making a small profit, it wouldn't be enough to make substantial investments, or to pay back the government loan.

So any comparison to the Leaf, from Tesla's perspective, has to be done with the future Bluestar. In other words, the 40 kWh option does not replace the "missing" Bluestar. Hence the importance of Bluestar, and the need for Tesla to be able to make the investments eventually leading to the ability to mass-manufacture at a price competitive in the mainstream market, coinciding with the corresponding battery price development.

To me, it all fits together. For Tesla, I haven't heard a better plan yet.

 

[AnOutsider]

For me, it's a mixture of both. Coming from the Audi family, I don't think I could go for a Leaf to be honest. Also, Audi doesn't seem to be taking the electric vehicle very seriously. Tesla does, and they also seem to be pushing the envelope since they have something to prove.

I like that with the Model S, I can have my cake and eat it too (nice car, cool tech, great performance etc). I fear with a Leaf, I would basically only have gotten the "cool tech" part.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think the people comparing the Leaf and the Model S want neither. They want a vehicle that's basically the middle ground (a Leaf with more range, or a Model S with less luxury/size/cost). I think the Bluestar may be that vehicle (and maybe the Leaf 2.0 or the planned Infiniti EV).

 

[Norbert]

Support for CHAdeMO DC charging (for all packs) would address many people's concerns with one stone.

Except this stone might be dangerous for Tesla.

If Tesla adds a CHAdeMO adapter, there are two things: it might already be working on it, but not in any kind of urgency, simply because it starts selling in North America, and a CHAdeMO network doesn't exist yet, here. It's said to come any moment, but already so for some time. Perhaps there will be increased efforts on Nissan's side when they opens the factory here in the US.

Then, it might not come for the 40 kWh pack option, even if it comes for other pack options. What we appear to hear is that even 1C reduces lifetime for these batteries which are optimized for range. The 40 KWh is apparently already at the lower end of the lifetime Tesla would want to support. Tesla does not have the option to arbitrarily reduce the lifetime, and would have to set the charging speed below 1C, maybe 35 kW. While some here, who have gone through these discussions and think that is better than nothing, those who come in later will say that sucks and give bad reviews. Or will do so when they see the range decreasing. Tesla needs good reviews, bad compromises won't do, especially not in this political situation where much of the media (and presidential candidates) are just waiting for the tiniest possibility to kill the EV idea. As sad as it may be for some, it is better to loose a few customers, than not to make good on the features delivered.

 

[JRP3]

I think the people comparing the Leaf and the Model S want neither. They want a vehicle that's basically the middle ground (a Leaf with more range, or a Model S with less luxury/size/cost). I think the Bluestar may be that vehicle (and maybe the Leaf 2.0 or the planned Infiniti EV).

For me the "ideal" vehicle may be the Nissan ESFlow, depending on what is actually produced. The S is really too large, the LEAF doesn't have enough range to justify it's cost and I don't need the room, plus the looks still give me problems. Bluestar may grab my interest but probably not if the ESFlow comes out first with good specs. All that said, fast charging is a non issue for me so I'd rather have a base S with no fast charging than an upgraded more expensive LEAF with fast charging. Long trips are a rarity in my life, and I like it that way. I have better things to do with my time than rack up highway miles.

 

[EVNow]

The Leaf is like an Electric Nissan Versa. You can't even get leather seats. I don't know why anyone is comparing the Model S with the Leaf. They're not even in the same solar system.

You know, a lot of us don't want leather. Infact that is another problem I've with options - no heated seats without leather. Leather is too toxic for the environment and inhumane. But, thats a different story.