90D Range slowly declining

[Oyvind.H]

I`ve started a thread at the norwegian EV forum to get input from norwegian 90D owners. So far the only experience is one guy who has lost about 1 kilometer every week the last two months.

And a 85D owner has posted his numbers with no decrease in range after 8 months/44.000km.

If I this much for extra range that disappears after a year compared to the 85D I`ll be quite mad. But hopefully the car will perform fine.

 

[msnow]

JRP3:
Take a look at the geographic locations of those who are seeing loss and see if you notice any correlation. I am not suggesting there is one, but that really needs to be taken into account. Also FLASHERZ has posted an informative thread on the effects of seasonality on rated range with his historic observed data in graphic form...

I have PM'ed RAWN77 to fill us in on his service center visit...

Thanks Art, what's the link for the FlasherZ article?

 

[msnow]

I`ve started a thread at the norwegian EV forum to get input from norwegian 90D owners. So far the only experience is one guy who has lost about 1 kilometer every week the last two months.

And a 85D owner has posted his numbers with no decrease in range after 8 months/44.000km.

If I this much for extra range that disappears after a year compared to the 85D I`ll be quite mad. But hopefully the car will perform fine.

Even if it doesn't I'm sure Tesla will take care of it.

 

[Oyvind.H]

Even if it doesn't I'm sure Tesla will take care of it.

I`m not interrested in buying a car with major flaws, and if it turns out to be a problem the waiting list for service here in Norway is half a year.
But if several 90D owners post calming degradation numbers the issue might turn out to be no issue at all (or at least isolated to just a few cases).

Edit: another S85D post in the norwegian thread. 11km down in 9 months/38.000km. That`s about what I would expect from an unbalanced pack with that age/mileage.

 

[ArtInCT]

Thanks Art, what's the link for the FlasherZ article?

Here is the link to FLASHERZ's thread on Range and Seasonality.... -> Displayed Range and Seasonality

I do hope many of you will take the time to give it a read.
As you may or may not know, FLASHERZ is the author of the Charging and Infrastructure WIKI here on TMC and as such he really applies himself to all things charging and electric.

You will notice that rated range goes DOWN and UP in a rhythmic manner according to his data.

 

[msnow]

Here is the link to FLASHERZ's thread on Range and Seasonality.... -> Displayed Range and Seasonality

I do hope many of you will take the time to give it a read.
As you may or may not know, FLASHERZ is the author of the Charging and Infrastructure WIKI here on TMC and as such he really applies himself to all things charging and electric.

You will notice that rated range goes DOWN and UP in a rhythmic manner according to his data.

Ok great, thanks for the link. I remember reading this before. For me, living in Southern California, temperature isn't a factor for my loss of rated range. I've also read wd057's posts on battery leveling and calibration and tried his methods of charging >93% and running it down <20% to balance and recalibrate and although it helped somewhat it was just temporary. I'm pretty sure it's either the battery or the algorithm or perhaps a combination of both. Will keep everyone informed on what I hear from the Service Center.

 

[rawn77]

OK, so here's the results of my Service (non-Service) visit.
My SA called me early morning on the day I was supposed to bring in my car to have my battery checked and possibly changed.
He said that Tesla engineers had informed him that the battery/range/declining of the S90 is a known issue with many S90 owners report having the same problem.
He went on to say that he was told nothing was wrong with the batteries but that a future firmware update will solve it; but that he wasn't sure when that would happen.
In the end, he said there was no reason to bring in my car for the battery issue as there is nothing he could do; be patient.
So I am now being patient.

On a good note; my battery has seemed to stabilize; most of my 90% charges are 245, on rare occasions it's reached 246 miles.

I leave to Miami, FL this Sunday...hopefully the Montreal-Albany trip will happen uneventful as it has before during early autumn.
I still love my car, and will sleep in the confidence that Tesla will make it right, sooner rather than later.
Just don't quote my serenity if Spring comes around and still no fix.

Best regards
Ron

 

[apacheguy]

He said that Tesla engineers had informed him that the battery/range/declining of the S90 is a known issue with many S90 owners report having the same problem.

Why don't they simply email the engineering memo to all affected 90 kWh owners to give them peace of mind? If I were a 90 kWh owner I'd want to have a basic understanding of the cause and the assurance that it is merely a software glitch.

 

[Canuck]

Why don't they simply email the engineering memo to all affected 90 kWh owners to give them peace of mind? If I were a 90 kWh owner I'd want to have a basic understanding of the cause and the assurance that it is merely a software glitch.

Probably because the vast majority of 90 owners likely have no idea about this issue, let alone any concern regarding this issue. Sending out a memo on an issue that is not an issue to many only creates more problems, rather than solving it.

This isn't like putting a float in a gas container to determine volume. This is what is involved in determining the state of charge of a lithium ion battery:

Battery State of Charge Determination

It's certainly not an easy process and the surprise should be when it can be accurately predicted. The Nissan Leaf is an absolute joke when it comes to this issue and it's "guess-o-meter".

 

[msnow]

There's also the question of why there are people (some in this forum and thread) who have been monitoring this but still only have lost 1 or 2 miles of rated range with the same model, mileage and time of ownership. Why are some impacted more than others? My sense is that Tesla may know there's an issue if people are reporting it but don't know yet what it is. I guess the good news is they're saying there's really no range loss, it's just software.

 

[apacheguy]

Tesla has access to loads of uploaded diagnostic logs. They know precisely which 90 kWh cars are affected and which are not and could easily tailor the email campaign. If the concern is unnecessarily alarming folks who had no idea about the issue, then they should simply post to this thread. I know, heaven forbid that Tesla has any interaction with a mere Internet forum but it is not unprecedented. George B used to be an active member and posted directly from TM.

 

[BertL]

FWIW, I'm one of those new S90D owners where 251 miles appears to have become my new daily 90% charge just 2 months after delivery (which should be 257), and it's not because of dramatic seasonal variation here in SoCal where it was 74F in my backyard this afternoon (not rubbing that in too much! ).

Yes, I'm concerned. Yes, I keep daily logs of temps and rated range that I check every morning when I awake -- that I really don't want to maintain, but I acknowledge may be needed because I accepted being part of a new brand with new technology that is pushing the envelope when I ordered my new MS. Yes, I've done a bunch of research and try to keep up with these threads -- including all their speculation and sometimes off-beat and sarcastic comments that could cause perhaps less-informed owners or potential owners additional concern ...but I'm still staying rational, and trying to deal with facts. That's what I'd recommend other S90 owners do as well.

As a couple other enthusiasts here have done, I too will be providing my data points to Tesla upon my next SC visit later this month. For now, I remain confident Tesla will get their act together resolving a hardware, software, and/or data presentation problem that appears to exist for some of us with this newer 90kWh technology -- hopefully they will also explain what's going on when it's resolved for those of us with an issue. I would not be happy or have confidence instilled in me as an owner (that paid $3K for 16 miles of additional rated range), to magically have a higher rated range appear after my next firmware release without some official words of why a change was made to go along with it. IMHO, Tesla has generally done a good job in the past stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing for their owners. I have no reason to suspect something different and remain confident Tesla will figure this out, assuming Elon and Tesla have not already moved on to other priorities they deem more important or interesting. I frankly am more worried about that, than in Tesla's ability to resolve my early range degradation problem.

 

[apacheguy]

... hopefully they will also explain what's going on when it's resolved for those of us with an issue. I would not be happy or have confidence instilled in me as an owner (that paid $3K for 16 miles of additional rated range), to magically have a higher rated range appear after my next firmware release without some official words of why a change was made to go along with it.

I guarantee there will be no remarks in the release notes when the change is made. I've been following Tesla for too long to know that it is wishful thinking to expect them to convey an engineering memo, but that doesn't stop me from hoping and calling them out on it. Let's hope I'm wrong, but I know I won't be.

 

[Canuck]

Tesla has access to loads of uploaded diagnostic logs. They know precisely which 90 kWh cars are affected and which are not and could easily tailor the email campaign. If the concern is unnecessarily alarming folks who had no idea about the issue, then they should simply post to this thread. I know, heaven forbid that Tesla has any interaction with a mere Internet forum but it is not unprecedented. George B used to be an active member and posted directly from TM.

But I bet that even many owners of affected cars have no idea of this issue. Unless you are keeping track, you wouldn't know, and if you have it on percentage, rather than miles, it's not possible to know.

And reps posting in forums is a no-win situation. I know it's not unprecedented but that's in the past, not only here, but also on other forums. I haven't seen a Nissan rep post on the Leaf forum for as long as a Tesla rep hasn't posted here. And that makes complete sense to me. It surprised me more when they did post.

 

[Oyvind.H]

I feel there`s too few report to draw a final conclusion about the S90D range development. But what I know this far is:
a) The S90D has by far the quickest indicated range degradation in the beginning. I haven’t seen a S85D with this kind of indicated degradation.
b) The indicated range might be incorrect, need of balancing etc. but that`s been said for years about all models. Why hasn’t any S85D owners experienced anything close to what S90D owners experience?
c) The risk of getting a S90D with quick range indicated range degradation isn`t known. We don`t know if it`s 1/10, 1/100 or 1/1000. But several reports of quick indicated degradation both here and in Norway makes it quite possible that a significant part of the S90Ds have this problem
d) It`s been said that 90kWh pack uses Silicone, which I now read that is known for quicker degradation. But I don’t know if silicone is used.

Based on the above I`ve sent an email to service here in Norway, asking for a decent explanation of this issue. I don`t believe Tesla have no idea as to why the S90D range is falling so quickly for some owners. They must know something. After all – they made the software.
Maybe the voltage isn`t as stable with this chemistry? Maybe the degradation is much quicker in the beginning, but slower later on compared to the old chemistry?

There are many explanations that would make my purchase a great experience But “oh, it`s software error” won`t cut it for a car in this price range

The reply from service might be confidential, but if it`s ok to repost the basics I`ll do so!

 

[apacheguy]

And reps posting in forums is a no-win situation.

Hmm. Not sure about that. Many owners are concerned about an issue with their car and the issue has attracted enough attention to raise eyebrows of some prospective buyers who peruse the forums. A simple statement of reassurance from engineering giving a technical explanation would but everyone at ease. Win, win, IMO.

 

[ArtInCT]

In the world of Cobra replicas, there is a forum called clubcobra.com. Therein there is a manufacturer's sub forum and ERA Cobras has a sub-forum called Speak With Bob Putnam who is the lead engineer of ERA Cobras. Bob fields all sorts of questions for current and prospective owners.... His insights and expertise are highly valued and as such ERA maintains their leadership in that niche. It works well for ERA and is a competitive advantage IMHO.

 

[Canuck]

There are many explanations that would make my purchase a great experience But “oh, it`s software error” won`t cut it for a car in this price range

Yes, especially since this is the first vehicle manufacturer ever, worldwide, who has made a long range EV, and this is the first 90 battery ever made. No one else has even come anywhere close to attempting that. The biggest battery any other car maker has made is less than 1/3 the size. Plus, it's been out for under a year now. And, besides that, it's not reliable at all. I mean how dare I be able to drive long distances but have to look at a software error of declining range that really makes no difference if it is a software error. I mean, look at what I paid! How dare they! It's easy to estimate range. Put a float in the tank like the one in my Lamborghini!

Hmm. Not sure about that. Many owners are concerned about an issue with their car and the issue has attracted enough attention to raise eyebrows of some prospective buyers who peruse the forums. A simple statement of reassurance from engineering giving a technical explanation would but everyone at ease. Win, win, IMO.

And when that same rep doesn't post in the hp thread? Surely, there's a simple answer to that issue. Or, they just post where they can, and no adverse inference will be drawn from not posting in other forums?

In the world of Cobra replicas, there is a forum called clubcobra.com. Therein there is a manufacturer's sub forum and ERA Cobras has a sub-forum called Speak With Bob Putnam who is the lead engineer of ERA Cobras. Bob fields all sorts of questions for current and prospective owners.... His insights and expertise are highly valued and as such ERA maintains their leadership in that niche. It works well for ERA and is a competitive advantage IMHO.

Yes, because we know there are threads in clubcobra.com of owners threatening lawsuits. How many views has that forum had last month?

 

[sorka]

Tesla has access to loads of uploaded diagnostic logs. They know precisely which 90 kWh cars are affected and which are not and could easily tailor the email campaign.

You mean like with the supercharger for long distance email

 

[apacheguy]

You mean like with the supercharger for long distance email

Well in that instance the code logic that determined who got the email was fouled up. It's much simpler to see which 90 owners have less than x miles at 90%, or better yet if they know the precise cause then query directly for that. I think it's a good idea to maintain good rapport with customers, something which is clearly lacking here. Folks go into their SvC and are either told there is nothing wrong or that some future update somewhere along the line is going to fix it somehow. Neither are good responses, IMO.