3 bottles of RBF 660 bleeding brakes and still have no brakes.

[Brandon86]

This process has been the worst experience with brakes ever on a car in my life. Been working on cars over 25+ years now.....

Here's an update. I bought 3 different power brake bleeders before I found one that wasn't trash and could hold pressure without leaking. Then bled everything with it. Still no air bubbles present. Decided to drive on a private road and activate ABS after pumping the brakes up to gain pressure. Activated ABS 5 times. Next morning, rebled every caliper in the X pattern like Tesla says to do in service manual, then from furthest to nearest master cylinder. 7 times. NO AIR. NO LEAKS. Then finally the cable came in I ordered to use the Tesla Toolbox 3. Went through the procedure bleeding the brakes IAW the method in the service manual. Same problem....... Did it probably 5 more times, same problem.

Running the Stiffness Pressure test in the Toolbox leads to telling me the system should hold 55 bar or you should rebleed again. Continued to do so, but cannot achieve a pressure value above 10. Apparently low limit is 31 and 80 is high pressure liimit. Took off every caliper to inspect for any leakage of brake fluid around the piston seals, everything is dry. Re-tightened all brake line connections just in case. No change. The only change in pressure I can achieve is if I leave the pressure bleeder on and pumped to 28lbs of pressure, even though it's supposed to be with just the cap on. then I can achieve a pressure value of about 12.75 bar. Toolbox 3 says if the value is above 4 There is air in the system, or there is leak in the system..... Well where the **** is it?

Been through atleast 6 L of some Prestone DOT4 brake fluid from autozone. Haven't seen a single air bubble in days of working on the car. Bought a master cylinder online, received it about an hour ago. It's filthy inside the reservoir, and was shipped with no cap so I'm not putting that in my car. Honestly, at this point I'm beyond livid.

I've checked the diagnostics of everything and the car has no errors present, just that my side marker light is receiving a higher voltage value, because I have some aftermarket turn signals...... Anybody got any other ideas? I only have until 2pm tomorrow to continue to use the diagnostic software, and it's hot as hell outside in the keys, so I'm taking a break. Guess I'm gonna miss my alignment appointment I waited 5 weeks for since I have no brakes and can't drive to Miami like that.

 

[gearchruncher]

Have you tried reverse bleeding? Pushing fluid into the calipers from the bleed screw?

 

[MP3Mike]

It does sound like the master cylinder was damaged with the fast press all the way to the floor. So getting a good one would be the next step. Or maybe a rebuild kit if one is available.

 

[DownshiftDre]

Crazy! If it cant hold pressure and no air in lines then something is expanding volume wise?

Only thing left would be revert to stock brake lines? But finding that unlikely. It could be a bad master cylinder but just from a fast push?

 

[Brandon86]

Have you tried reverse bleeding? Pushing fluid into the calipers from the bleed screw?

This is not something I have ever tried before but may look into it soon.

 

[MP3Mike]

It could be a bad master cylinder but just from a fast push?

If it was pushed past the designed limits one of the seals/o-rings could have got damaged such that pressure leaks back into the reservoir slowly. (I had it happen on an old ICE vehicle.)

 

[Brandon86]

It does sound like the master cylinder was damaged with the fast press all the way to the floor. So getting a good one would be the next step. Or maybe a rebuild kit if one is available.

Well, to rule out everything, I just finished up replacing it with the one I bought. The reservoir was very dirty, but I swapped it with mine. Was pretty easy, just a push pin and then cleaned everything up thoroughly so that the seals would work well and put it in the car.

Unfortunately, after installing, I bled all 4 corners as per the Toolbox 3 instructions multiple times until I had no bubbles again for 2 sessions and then ended up with basically the same result. Slightly higher pressure values, but nothing near what is required to pass. The test was a failure. I took a bunch of pictures of the results of the stiffness test after so I can troubleshoot some more. Only problem is, Tesla Toolbox 3 diagnostic failures aren't that widely known online yet.

I would probably still be out there working on it, but I'm dead tired, haven't eaten much all day and need to work early tomorrow. I will probably spend some time working on it after work tomorrow.

 

[Brandon86]

If it was pushed past the designed limits one of the seals/o-rings could have got damaged such that pressure leaks back into the reservoir. (I had it happen on an old ICE vehicle.)

Same here. Only happened twice ever, and on pretty old 60's vehicles but it can happen. Figured the replacement would work, but no go.....

 

[Brandon86]

Fixed.

The master cylinder seemed to be the culprit. Didn't initially fix it, but after some more bleeding today, I finally have a stiff pedal. Even though I got no visible/audible air out of the system while doing so(weird). Took it out for a test drive everything seems perfect. Initial bite is right where expected, no problems. Haven't activated ABS again yet, but there was tons of traffic. I'll try that tonight and if that goes well, I'll go through the brake burnishing process in the service mode of the car so I can bed in the new rotors/pads. I can't run the Tesla Toolbox 3 tests again to see what my pressure is at because my subscription expired, but it is working great. Thank you all for your assistance!

I am still running the cheaper Prestone DOT4 fluid for now, but I can atleast make it to my alignment appointment tomorrow! I'll wait until the week before my next track day to swap out to the RBF 660 because if I have to bleed one more brake line this week I'll go insane. LMAO

As far as the best brake bleeder I've found to use in case anyone is curious I highly recommend the FirstInfo A1163HK that can be purchased on Amazon. It has fittings for every Tesla and 5 other fittings for various vehicles. It holds high pressure GREAT, has a nice convenient shut-off valve, pressure release button, the works! If you have a Motive bleeder already you can just purchase their adapter A1163HKT3, but you'll need a quick disconnect fitting to make it fit the hose on the Motive bleeder. The fitting is a little uncommon I think though, because I haven't seen that one anywhere else before, maybe its proprietary. It also comes with three different quick disconnect fittings for other types of adapters you may already own. Quality piece of kit with lifetime parts warranty through manufacturer according to the material inside the box. The cap is amazing, and doesn't leak any air or fluid. It's also aluminum so it should stand up to repeated uses quite well.

I know the Motive bleeder is very popular among enthusiasts, myself included in recent years, but the two I purchased leaked around the gage area. Maybe it's because the Tesla requires you to pump it to 30 psi instead of like most cars I've done in past which is 15-18psi. The gage itself didn't leak, but the fitting through the plastic bottle with no rubber seal of any kind there(horrible design imo). Could probably be fixed with 2 rubber washers sandwiched in between 2 flat washers and then the sides of the fitting. I purchased 2 and they both leaked. I also tried the Aries 70921-2 bleeder and it was garbage. Links below to the FirstInfo products I'm referring to.

Bleeder kit: (It comes with the Tesla cap so you don't need to buy it separately if you go this route)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F9QT651?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Standalone Master cylinder Cap:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09B9YP2LR?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Do not buy this 3L FirstInfo bleeder, because the quick disconnect will not fit their own Tesla Model 3 specific fitting

Amazon.com

Thanks again everyone for your assistance/guidance through this ordeal. Glad to have this project completed.

 

[MP3Mike]

The master cylinder seemed to be the culprit. Didn't initially fix it, but after some more bleeding today, I finally have a stiff pedal. Even though I got no visible/audible air out of the system while doing so(weird). Took it out for a test drive everything seems perfect. Initial bite is right where expected, no problems.

Glad you were able to get the problem resolved!

 

[DownshiftDre]

Fixed.

The master cylinder seemed to be the culprit. Didn't initially fix it, but after some more bleeding today, I finally have a stiff pedal. Even though I got no visible/audible air out of the system while doing so(weird). Took it out for a test drive everything seems perfect. Initial bite is right where expected, no problems. Haven't activated ABS again yet, but there was tons of traffic. I'll try that tonight and if that goes well, I'll go through the brake burnishing process in the service mode of the car so I can bed in the new rotors/pads. I can't run the Tesla Toolbox 3 tests again to see what my pressure is at because my subscription expired, but it is working great. Thank you all for your assistance!

I am still running the cheaper Prestone DOT4 fluid for now, but I can atleast make it to my alignment appointment tomorrow! I'll wait until the week before my next track day to swap out to the RBF 660 because if I have to bleed one more brake line this week I'll go insane. LMAO

As far as the best brake bleeder I've found to use in case anyone is curious I highly recommend the FirstInfo A1163HK that can be purchased on Amazon. It has fittings for every Tesla and 5 other fittings for various vehicles. It holds high pressure GREAT, has a nice convenient shut-off valve, pressure release button, the works! If you have a Motive bleeder already you can just purchase their adapter A1163HKT3, but you'll need a quick disconnect fitting to make it fit the hose on the Motive bleeder. The fitting is a little uncommon I think though, because I haven't seen that one anywhere else before, maybe its proprietary. It also comes with three different quick disconnect fittings for other types of adapters you may already own. Quality piece of kit with lifetime parts warranty through manufacturer according to the material inside the box. The cap is amazing, and doesn't leak any air or fluid. It's also aluminum so it should stand up to repeated uses quite well.

I know the Motive bleeder is very popular among enthusiasts, myself included in recent years, but the two I purchased leaked around the gage area. Maybe it's because the Tesla requires you to pump it to 30 psi instead of like most cars I've done in past which is 15-18psi. The gage itself didn't leak, but the fitting through the plastic bottle with no rubber seal of any kind there(horrible design imo). Could probably be fixed with 2 rubber washers sandwiched in between 2 flat washers and then the sides of the fitting. I purchased 2 and they both leaked. I also tried the Aries 70921-2 bleeder and it was garbage. Links below to the FirstInfo products I'm referring to.

Bleeder kit: (It comes with the Tesla cap so you don't need to buy it separately if you go this route)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F9QT651?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Standalone Master cylinder Cap:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09B9YP2LR?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Do not buy this 3L FirstInfo bleeder, because the quick disconnect will not fit their own Tesla Model 3 specific fitting

Amazon.com

Thanks again everyone for your assistance/guidance through this ordeal. Glad to have this project completed.

The brake burnish function in service mode has brake pressure readings.

Thanks for the brake bleeding hardware tips.

 

[mongo]

The master cylinder seemed to be the culprit. Didn't initially fix it, but after some more bleeding today, I finally have a stiff pedal. Even though I got no visible/audible air out of the system while doing so(weird).

The ABS block may have released air through the master cylinder.

One question: where did the brake bleed pattern come from? Online service manual has LF, RF, RR, LR.

I have no air bubbles in the system that I can find and I bled in standard direction (RR,LR,FR,FL), as well as reverse (FL,FR,RL,RR) the second time after it didn't work.

Next morning, rebled every caliper in the X pattern like Tesla says to do in service manual, then from furthest to nearest master cylinder. 7 times.

 

[gearchruncher]

One question: where did the brake bleed pattern come from? Online service manual has LF, RF, RR, LR.

Can we post the correction codes when referencing the service manuals? I can't find this reference in the Model 3 service manual. Only in correction code 330312021 "Brake Fluid Bleed/Flush" do I find anything, and it does say "Bleed the front LH brake caliper first." but doesn't say anything else about the rest of the order.

 

[dsgerbc]

Can we post the correction codes when referencing the service manuals? I can't find this reference in the Model 3 service manual. Only in correction code 330312021 "Brake Fluid Bleed/Flush" do I find anything, and it does say "Bleed the front LH brake caliper first." but doesn't say anything else about the rest of the order.

It does, in the rest of the instructions.

22. Repeat step 12 through step 21 for the front RH brake caliper.

23. Bleed the rear RH brake caliper next.

34. Repeat step 24 through step 32 for the rear LH brake caliper.

The order is weird though. I can see it being the right one when you're doing it with the Tesla tool/software. If you're just bleeding, I'd still start from the longest line and go to the shortest.

 

[gearchruncher]

Thanks @dsgerbc!
While the order is unusual, I'm guessing with modern ABS systems there is a logic to this madness. Once the fluid is in the ABS unit and distributed from there, it probably doesn't really matter what corner you do first.

There's also a big difference between flushing fluid to get fresh fluid in the system vs a full re-fill after you have air in it. They may actually want you to go to the closest caliper when bleeding air out in order to get the ABS unit filled first and with the least back pressure.

So I'm with you that if you're flushing the traditional path makes sense, but for actual bleeding of air I'd probably use their method.

What is also interesting is that if you replace a single caliper or brake line, they only have you bleed that one caliper, so they aren't really worried about air moving back up into the system.

 

[mongo]

Thanks @dsgerbc!
While the order is unusual, I'm guessing with modern ABS systems there is a logic to this madness. Once the fluid is in the ABS unit and distributed from there, it probably doesn't really matter what corner you do first.

There's also a big difference between flushing fluid to get fresh fluid in the system vs a full re-fill after you have air in it. They may actually want you to go to the closest caliper when bleeding air out in order to get the ABS unit filled first and with the least back pressure.

So I'm with you that if you're flushing the traditional path makes sense, but for actual bleeding of air I'd probably use their method.

What is also interesting is that if you replace a single caliper or brake line, they only have you bleed that one caliper, so they aren't really worried about air moving back up into the system.

Fronts have dual bleeders and a lot of volume, so that may be why they do those first as opposed to the corners on the same circuit.

 

[XPsionic]

The master cylinder seemed to be the culprit. Didn't initially fix it, but after some more bleeding today, I finally have a stiff pedal

So what was the fix exactly? Swapped master cylinder with a used one and bled again?

 

[Clover]

This is brining back bad memories for me. I once did a master cylinder on a 944 and went through 5 bottles and a couple nights before I took it in to a shop to learn my new master cylinder was letting in air. When I built my car, I had to make my own lines throughout and had a few leaks to chase down and went through a lot of fluid again. But my real low, helping my friend, do his brakes, I mistaken the power steering res for the brake fluid. Topped that bitch off with brake fluid like a fool, could not figure out why my pressure bleeder was not working. Eventually used a vacuum system to try to pull through fluid and was baffled at the still full tank after pulling the fluid out at the calipers. Thought about it for a while, though maybe some ABS system problem, so I finally checked for directions and realized my mistake. The brake fluid reservoir was hidden under a removable panel behind the firewall. Felt like such an idiot. Had to have my friend's car towed to a shop to flush the power steering system. Luckily we did not damage the power steering system. I now know that for various reasons, I should not be trusted too far with brake jobs.

That was a rather long way of saying, don't feel bad. I've done worse.

 

[Brandon86]

So what was the fix exactly? Swapped master cylinder with a used one and bled again?

Yep.

MC must have been damaged by pushing abruptly past the pistons fully open position, too many times. This can cause fluid to get behind the piston as well sometimes, because it may tear one of the O-rings inside. It's happened to me twice before on very old cars. Never on a new one though.

I replaced the MC and rebled all the brakes in the order Tesla says to do it using Toolbox 3 software. My subscription was expired so I just used a pressure bleeder. It didn't fix it, so I waited until morning, did the exact same bleed procedure twice more and it's working great. Like someone mentioned before, the ABS module may have released whatever tiny air bubbles were left over upwards towards the MC overnight. I left the cap off for the night which may have helped that process, technically it shouldn't because it's closed if the brake pedal isn't being pressed. You should never leave the cap off because brake fluid will suck up the moisture in the air. I only did it because I knew I was doing a FULL flush again the next morning with brand new bottle of fluid.

 

[Lindenwood]

Thanks @dsgerbc!
While the order is unusual, I'm guessing with modern ABS systems there is a logic to this madness. Once the fluid is in the ABS unit and distributed from there, it probably doesn't really matter what corner you do first.

There's also a big difference between flushing fluid to get fresh fluid in the system vs a full re-fill after you have air in it. They may actually want you to go to the closest caliper when bleeding air out in order to get the ABS unit filled first and with the least back pressure.

So I'm with you that if you're flushing the traditional path makes sense, but for actual bleeding of air I'd probably use their method.

What is also interesting is that if you replace a single caliper or brake line, they only have you bleed that one caliper, so they aren't really worried about air moving back up into the system.

When I swapped in my front 6-Pistons and put in RBF, I simple did furthest-to-closest and didn’t have any issues. Good to know the correct order for next time, though!