New Inventory cars are different than A CPO if u want a new inventory car (typically show room or demo models ) which qualify as a new car for fed credit and CA ARb rebate talk to your OA they will find a car for you ..a CPO is like a returned leased car or trade in that is not eligible for credit or rebate ..also what is important for u in the X ? range , performance , options ??
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2016 P90D or 2017 75D
- Thread starter irvineboy
- Start date
New Inventory cars are different than A CPO if u want a new inventory car (typically show room or demo models ) which qualify as a new car for fed credit and CA ARb rebate talk to your OA they will find a car for you ..a CPO is like a returned leased car or trade in that is not eligible for credit or rebate ..also what is important for u in the X ? range , performance , options ??
Exactly, the free supercharger access shouldn't be transferable. This will eat into your new/used cost analysis. The big one is the extra interest rate too if you were to get a loan on it since Tesla has specials to keep the rates low. Tires are $1000 a set, lucky the Tesla doesn't eat tires like crazy, still you are looking at $250 down the drain to start.
I agree the real leather seats are more comfortable, but are you sure they will last?
Btw, I have a returned lease car as a loaner. Gosh, you want to talk about beat up and bad quality. This car will be sold as a CPO car to some poor folk in the future..
I agree the real leather seats are more comfortable, but are you sure they will last?
Btw, I have a returned lease car as a loaner. Gosh, you want to talk about beat up and bad quality. This car will be sold as a CPO car to some poor folk in the future..
Well, @bonnie's Founders AP2 certainly is more unicorn than mine, no comparison!
But yes, my Q1/2017 built Model X (P100D AP2, ordered early Q4/2016 to replace my then-yet to be delivered original Signature order) certainly has many things since discontinued: the original ventilated seats (since returned, new Performance ventilated seats may be better, though?), adaptive spoiler, Helix wheels, leather. It was also ordered when a wider range of non-packaged trim choices as well as paint options were available as well as the original electric seven seats, since discontinued (though I chose six, still available) - and free for life of car Supercharging, though the latter has been sort of making frequent comebacks as well.
Most of the discontinued things were discontinued by early 2017 for new orders, though leather was discontinued a bit later. The range of choices in a Model X today is quite a bit smaller and different than it was back then, but there are more seating options today.
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Faster yes (not that an uncorked 75D is in any way slow!). The rest depends on your personal opinion. For example I much prefer the latest synthetic leather to the real leather Tesla were previously using. I also much prefer the 7 seat folding bench to the older 7 seat option. Options really depend on what 2 specific cars you are comparing. There are plenty of fully loaded 75D cars around. Although you can still get lemons in 2018, build quality is definitely on average much improved with countless design tweaks since 2016. FWDs in particular should function much better than early examples.
actually the 2016 will have free supercharging, the 2017 wont.
but supercharging is so cheap it shouldn't be a factor. we're talking less than $100 a year, only if you actually supercharge beyond the 400kwh allowance.
It was cars ordered through Jan 15th 2017 if I recall? So in theory up to March 31st Model X’s or something had FUSC that followed the car?
Yes.
Internationally there might even be later examples (which at least in theory could return to the U.S. with expats etc.), given that international order deliveries can take two quarters - a car ordered in early Q1/2017 might have gotten built in Q2 for international deliveries. So it is a bit more subtle than just "2016 models" certainly...
But sure, as a simplified rule, with 2016 cars one definitely is "safe" in this regard.
Yinn
Active Member
I can confirm the AP1 MX can also be uncorked. AP1 MS are the ones that had issues, mostly because some MS75D battery packs didn't utilize the higher capacity design.
First things first. Let's throw out the 2016 and 2017, they mean nothing. Tesla made multiple changes in 2016 as they did in 2017. Some 2016 were AP1, some were AP2. Some had moving spoilers, some didn't. Some in 2017 had tow packages, others didn't, etc. I've had both a 2016 and a 2017 and both have been back for service the same amount. Some issues were the same, some werent.
Let's talk about a 75D vs a P90D.
Price: Wash. The price difference isn't significant enough that you couldn't negotiate to an equal price point, plus other non-immediate price factors to consider. You can give the edge to the P90D at face value.
Modability: Wash.
Both cars are upgradable. Both can be made into a P100DL. Both can be upgraded cosmetically.
Range: Winner: P90D. Do you need the extra 15 miles indicated, or roughly 11 real miles?
Official range lists the 75D at 237 miles of range, ~213 at 90% or 210 after some minor degradation on a used car.
Official range lists the P90D at 253 miles of range. ~228 at 90% or 225 after some minor degradation on a used car.
Mileage: Winner 75D, but how is the maintenance?
Both will have unlimited miles on battery and drivetrain for 8 years. The 75D lasting another [est.] year depending on service date.
Wear and tear items are the only potential area of concern, not from a reliability perspective but from a maintenance cost perspective. I'd argue that it's not mileage, but maintenance performed that matters more here.
- Has the brake fluid been changed?
- Has the drivetrain fluid been changed?
- Has the wipers been changed?
- How is the tire wear? Have they been changed?
Options: Unknown. What do YOU want?
I wanted a heated steering wheel. My AP1 did not have one. I wanted a 6 seater instead of a 7. There's things you can install after the fact, and things you can only get by trading in for another car. I wouldn't have said this a year ago, but the AP1 vs AP2 is becoming a larger factor in that options package. Of course that doesn't matter if you wanted a Tesla that doesn't have AP (my S doesn't but has AP2 hardware)
Performance: P90D. What performance is important to you?
P90D does 0-60 in 3.2s. A MX75D does 0-60 in 4.7. Owning a 75D, I've NEVER been out 0-60'd on the street when I've been intending to do a 0-60 on the street.
For handling purposes, the suspension settings are the same on both cars. As are the wheels (assuming 22's are optional equipment on the MX75D) But the P90D weighs in at 5271lb, the Mx75D weighs in at 5072lb, 200lbs or 4% lighter is significant amount. With that said, I've never felt like the MX was unacceptable through an aggressive jughandle or unable to hold a line through a cloverleaf.
For braking purposes, well...first check the brakes on the P90D. Not all of them came with red brake calipers. Then even if they are, I've never actually seen a side by side comparison of the two calipers to see the differences beyond paint color so I can only speculate. Typically brake upgrades don't reduce stopping distance, they help with heat management which allows more frequent hard braking. How much does that matter? This goes back to a track question. But this video also did some tests which showed some differences.
So performance it becomes a question of how often do you intend to do any of that on the street? How often do you intend to do any of that at the track, and what type of track?
Fun fact: The performance specs on a Model X 75D are almost identical to an BMW e46 M3. Some argue that is the best M3 of all time. [It is not, the e36 M3 with the european engine is]
There's no right answer here. Which Model X do you want and/or need? For me, the Options would be the biggest factor.
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Yinn
Active Member
My old AP1 MX, my AP2 MX, and my AP2 MS all have trasnferable free supercharging. Two of those three were ordered and picked up after that cutoff. I'm not sure if they should or not, but Tesla went through bunch of changes for the program. At one point they said it would be tied to an owner account, at another they had to rollback and retro some of the cars.
The only way to know for sure is to hear from Tesla or ask the owner to screenshot the account page. It'll state definitively if the free supercharging applies to future owners. The language is:
"You have free, unlimited Supercharging for your current Tesla vehicle as well as any new Model S or Model X purchased before January 31, 2018. If you choose to sell your current Tesla, free supercharging will transfer to the next owner. In addition, up to five friends you refer will also recieve free Supercharging. Read our Supercharging terms."
What about all the dozens of detail improvements they made to the MX under the skin between early 2016 and late 2017 builds? It's not just AP1 vs AP2 and other "user" spec changes. There's no getting away from the fact that early MX builds had loads of design flaws and poor build quality, much of which had been addressed by mid-late 2017. Obviously there are "good" 2016 cars in existence and ones that have had their faults fixed, but on balance you would expect a late 2017 car to be better built with less potential issues. I accept that it's not guaranteed that a 2017 build will spend less time in service, but the odds have to be lower. I certainly think it's a valid factor when comparing these cars.
This choice really comes down to the importance you place on performance and the specific options on the car. A P90D is going to feel much faster on the road and that may be enough to sway some people away from a newer 75D and take the risk on an older build. But if the extra acceleration is not so important then a newer build has to be a better bet in this case.
Yinn
Active Member
That's kind of the point. It's not a 2016 vs 2017 because they constantly changed, overlapped, and in a lot of cases didn't have a clear cutoff. There's just no legitimit way to evaluate all of those to say a 2016 is better than a 2017, so much better to focus on your option packages.
As an owner of a mid (last batch delivered prior to 2017.5) car and a mid 2016 AP1; with over 30,000 miles each on them. I can't say I've notice a significant difference in reliability, nor day to day differences. The rain sensors work differently. The steering actually feels better in the AP1, despite there not being any official differences. Otherwise, both have had AC issues. Both have had door aligmment issues. Both have had shudders. Door motors have been replaced in my 2017, not my 2016. MCU was replaced in my 2016, not my 2017.
Noticable differences? Panel alignment is better. My 2016 had alignment/camber issues from the factory, my 2017 did not. It really isn't as much as people think it is. Even for AP, there wasn't a huge difference in AP1 vs AP2 and in many cases AP1 still beat out AP2 at least up until the last several months - I do think by the end of the year is where the newer cars will finally step up and shine over the older ones in this aspect.
I can't argue with your own ownership experience, but I thought there were numerous detail changes in later cars to address various reliability and panel fit issues along the way. Things such as early cars having their FWDs chewing into the door frame and various iterations of the FWD sensors, switches and front door latches. Maybe you simply wouldn't notice any of this stuff on an early 2016 car that had either been fixed or didn't suffer from the various common gremlins. But there are plenty of people on this forum like you with experience of both early and newer build cars who have noticed a significant improvement in build quality. Obviously you didn't, so it's a fair point that you have to compare individual cars regardless of their age. But the number of basket cases reported in 2016 was pretty spectacular, literally hitting rock bottom on reliability surveys. There are still clearly unresolved issues reported in 2018, but I would say the build situation has improved significantly since release in 2016. I have an early 2018 MX and so far it has been 100% reliable, but still only at 9k miles.
Remember that Tesla doesn't do "Model years" as we traditional think of in terms of auto.
They are always making incremental improvements all the time. A Model X made at the end of 2017 will be different than one made at the start of 2017.
I would generally believe the "higher the vin the better.
Though I would say 2016/2017 builds are probably close enough with the main criteria when considering a 2016 is:
Does it have AP2?
2016 Model X with AP2 and by extension, supercharging that follows the vehicle is pretty unique. You have to dig harder to find a 2017 that has the same.
They are always making incremental improvements all the time. A Model X made at the end of 2017 will be different than one made at the start of 2017.
I would generally believe the "higher the vin the better.
Though I would say 2016/2017 builds are probably close enough with the main criteria when considering a 2016 is:
Does it have AP2?
2016 Model X with AP2 and by extension, supercharging that follows the vehicle is pretty unique. You have to dig harder to find a 2017 that has the same.
Yinn
Active Member
Panel fit is improved, but the 2016 MX werent exactly as bad as the Model S were. My 2016 AP1 MX actually had better panel alignment and general fit and finish than my AP2 MS which was built later.
Reliability was also supposedly improved. Things like pinch sensors in the doors as an example, axles were redesigned, etc. I read and heard from the SC about all the same things. The part themselves might be different, or the failure points might be different but to me the end consumer, a trip to the SC to fix a door error, is a trip for a door problem. It may be due to sensor 5 which was originally had issues, or sensor 842b which is new and is throwing another error; I'm not really sure.
Both MXs were chewing through the door frame. Both have had new sensors, latches installed. Both are still chewing through the approved repair method and vinyl wrap installed with a SC note to come in when the patch seems low for a new one. I haven't seen a difference between the two. The switches haven't broken in either new or old style, more of a convenience and visual preference.
I can't state the reliability of 2017.5+ cars since I don't own one. But just to clarify, I'm not saying the 2016 cars don't have issues. I'm saying I haven't noticed a difference in the type or frequency of issues on my 2016 vs my 2017 car. I'm pretty sure I've had all the problem that's been detailed on the forums - on both cars. I do acknowledge I have a higher tolerance for gremlins as I understand it's a new car company, and the SC generally takes good care of me.
