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PureAmps
Model S P85 (#2817)
I asked about the 14-30 adapter when I picked up my car at the factory on 12/26 and was told they are not available yet, and it may be a few months before they are available (March?).
Another owner was picking up his car and also needed one to charge his car, so they were trying to find him one of the engineering prototypes to loan him. But since the factory was mostly shutdown for the holiday break they sent him away empty handed.
You might want to make Tesla aware that you require it before delivery. If they haven't started making the adapters by then, maybe they can find you a loaner as well.
I only need mine for occasional road trips where I know I can plug into a standard dryer outlet at my destination, so I can wait a few months to get mine.
Another owner was picking up his car and also needed one to charge his car, so they were trying to find him one of the engineering prototypes to loan him. But since the factory was mostly shutdown for the holiday break they sent him away empty handed.
You might want to make Tesla aware that you require it before delivery. If they haven't started making the adapters by then, maybe they can find you a loaner as well.
I only need mine for occasional road trips where I know I can plug into a standard dryer outlet at my destination, so I can wait a few months to get mine.
I've asked weekly since my delivery on 11/29/12. Actually, started asking even before that. Have been told consistently, "I recently received a request for a Nema 14-30 adapter for your mobile connector. At this time the adapters are still in production without a completion date." Come on, how hard can it be! I have a 14-30 all set to go here Tucson and would really prefer not to have to rewire for a 14-50.
You can send an email to [email protected] and I'm pretty sure that they would be able to custom make a 14-30 to 14-50 adapter for you. They made a 14-50 to L6-20 adapter for me for my Nissan EVSE which is working beautifully. The thing to remember is that your Tesla will not know that the circuit only supports 24 amps so you'll need to turn down the current draw from the Tesla. These are home made so obviously these are not UL listed and not to electrical code so you absorb some risk there (which if you're careful about the current pull, is not much of a risk).
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3085 is the link to the thread on the Nissan Leaf forum discussing these adapters.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3085 is the link to the thread on the Nissan Leaf forum discussing these adapters.
can i ask why you say this is your only option? i hesitate to bring this up, but:
Amazon.com: HUBBELL HBL9432C AC Plug NEMA 14-30 Male Angled: Home Improvement
Camco 55194 50 Amp 15 RV Power Grip Extension Cord : Amazon.com : Automotive
you can make it yourself if you feel comfortable making this adapting extension cord, ensuring it's wired exactly right, testing with dmm, etc, and for sure the same admonishment about making sure the model s is set to draw 24A - very important - but other than that i can't see why this isn't safe or ok to do. the wire gauge you're working with can more than handle the current draw on the extension end, your limiting factor is what's behind your 14-30 wall receptacle. you have to be mindful that that is what you're protecting, not the monster extension cable you've just made, which will take the current fine.
just understand that because the 14-50 on the tesla's mobile connector will make it think it can draw 40A, if you don't ensure the car is set to 24A, or less, you run the (likely) risk of overheating the wires in your wall and either: (hopefully) tripping your breaker time and again -- bad bad bad -- and/or starting a fire behind your walls -- horrific.
so. something you don't want to take a chance with.
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This type of stuff ranks right up there on the "here, hold my beer, watch this!" list
I have posted in several threads (in particular see the NEMA 6-20 thread and the NEMA 6-30 thread, easy searches) why these adapter cords, when not labeled properly, are dangerous -- and if you have a Zinsco or Federal-Pacific Electric breaker panel, are deadly. I hope I don't sound too much like a broken record to those who have seen my comments before, but each time I think it needs to be said...
Even being careful may not save you here. I posed a scenario that is not off-the-wall in an earlier thread: consider for a moment that you have set the car to a custom charge value of 24A. A software update arrives and you tell the car to install it at 2 am. By then, the "vampire load" drains the car beneath its "fully charged" threshold. The software installs at 2 a.m., and completes about 3:30 a.m. Because it is a new "major" version with a re-write to the charging code, it loses your custom charge value and resets to the appropriate value for the adapter attached to the car (let's say you're using a 14-50 on the UMC and it resets to 40A). Because the car is below the "fully charged" threshold, it attempts a charge when the car reboots post-update and it overloads your circuit. If your breaker trips, you're protected and it's a minor annoyance. If your breaker doesn't, because you have a Zinsco or FPE panel, for example, your wiring overheats and you can predict the rest.
This is why NEC requires our electrical infrastructure to assume that the appliances or persons using it have no knowledge of "special" things like FrankenCables. It's why I'm even against things like 10-50P to 14-50R adapters, because even though they're typically safe to use, can result in minor shocks or even broken appliances. It's why 50A plug-and-cord appliances have a 50A plug, require a 50A receptacle, on 50A wire, on a 50A breaker. You don't need to have any knowledge about other limitations.
In another thread, I posed the scenario in relation to ICE cars. Let's say you had an old gas pump at your home from the 1970's, with the larger gas nozzle for "regular" (leaded) gasoline. You find it doesn't fit your new car. Are you going to rig up something that involves some clear beverage hose, 2 hose clamps, a few winds of duct tape, and a small piece of pipe? Or should you just update to the right infrastructure in the first place? Most people think of the explosive nature of gasoline and would naturally say "yeah, bad idea" (granted, some wouldn't). But with electricity, I've seen far too many people do that -- and as a result I've seen houses burn, I've seen people be told by their insurance company that their loss isn't covered, I've read the articles in the paper about people who have lost their lives as a result.
I imagine that Tesla has the adapters designed, and is trying to get through the UL testing and listing processes, like with the HPWC. Tesla really needs to get a message out there about the adapters and when they can be expected, because I am concerned someone will end up with property or life loss as a result of rigging these types of solutions.
this is of course, and as usual from you, a very good point.
i am pretty sure that the charging current level is saved in a non-destructive eprom register and will transfer correctly after a firmware update, BUT, who knows what glitch could happen here and there. you are correct that the proper tesla-coded adapter for the charging circuit be used without exception. i mentioned it (and now somewhat regret doing so) only as a stopgap measure until the adapter came from tesla. any 'adapter cable' whether home made or purchased from a non-tesla source will have this issue.
thanks flasher.
adelman
R 539, S VIN S44, X Sig#1
In the "don't try this at home" category (but I did), and with all the usual warnings --
You can modify your 14-50 adapter that comes with the car so that it can fit either a 14-30 or a 14-50 receptacle. If you use it in a 14-30, you damn well better be sure to set the current limit in the car down to 24A.
NEMA 14-30 and 14-50 differ in the shape of the neutral blade; 14-50 is a straight blade and 14-30 is an "L" shape. You can
remove part of the blade so that it can fit in either receptacle. It will help to have a 14-30 receptacle or plug nearby to understand exactly which parts you need to remove. Or you can do it the way I did it -- the Tesla makes no connection to the neutral blade, so I just cut it off. Either way, if you use a dremel, go slowly and let the blade cool often so the heat buildup doesn't melt the plastic.
You can modify your 14-50 adapter that comes with the car so that it can fit either a 14-30 or a 14-50 receptacle. If you use it in a 14-30, you damn well better be sure to set the current limit in the car down to 24A.
NEMA 14-30 and 14-50 differ in the shape of the neutral blade; 14-50 is a straight blade and 14-30 is an "L" shape. You can
remove part of the blade so that it can fit in either receptacle. It will help to have a 14-30 receptacle or plug nearby to understand exactly which parts you need to remove. Or you can do it the way I did it -- the Tesla makes no connection to the neutral blade, so I just cut it off. Either way, if you use a dremel, go slowly and let the blade cool often so the heat buildup doesn't melt the plastic.
As always, your posts Flasher are greatly appreciated. I agree that the official Tesla adapter would be preferable but if the situation right now is having a car that can't charge in any reasonable amount of time because Tesla can't / won't give people a timetable as to when the adapter will become available, it may be the owner's only choice to use a temporary workaround for now until the official version becomes available. The risk is certainly real as you've described though I still believe the sequence of events that you've described is unlikely.
I am curious though as to how a 10-50 to 14-50 adapter might cause problems assuming that the adapter's electrical contacts were good?
The same can be done with 10-30 and 10-50 plugs, but it should be noted that you should not do this for NEMA 10-30P or 10-50P plugs. This is very important because the 10-series plugs and receptacles do not offer a separate safety equipment grounding conductor, and in the 10-series, the neutral provides this functionality. If you cut the neutral pin off, you will not have a safety ground, and that's very hazardous. If a wire in the car were to fray and the hot wire of the charger were to short to the car's body, a human then becomes the best path to ground for the voltage. If the car is plugged in and a human touches it, he/she will get one hell of a shock.
if you insist upon doing this type of modification, you must only *trim* the blade so it will fit on a NEMA 10 series plug. But, please just buy the adapter.
My view, honestly, is that $100 per adapter plug is far too much for what you get and is a great margin-enabler for Tesla. But from a safety point, these adapters need to be much less expensive. My price target for an adapter would be $25-30. They need to be no more than 10% above the comparable cost of building a FrankenCable, for safety reasons. If Tesla doesn't encourage the creation of FrankenCables, we'll all be far safer.
Is there anyway to use hardware to limit current to 24 amps in the above setup? I understand that folks can do it via the 17 inch screen via software, but can it be done with some sort of hardware that goes between the plug and socket??
The NEMA 6-20 and 6-30 threads explain this, but I'll resummarize here:
The 10-50 doesn't provide an equipment grounding conductor (safety ground) and assumes that the appliance will bond safety ground to the neutral. This was valid until NEC 1996, and since then all receptacles require a safety ground. Any modification to the circuit requires you remove the NEMA 10 series receptacle and place a new grounded receptacle (NEMA 14).
There are two reasons this becomes an issue:
1. There is a slight shock hazard when you combine the neutral and equipment grounding conductor. You may end up as a very small part of a parallel return path for some current flowing over a neutral. This is a minor concern, but a safety concern nonetheless, with older installations.
2. Since NEC 2005, with only one exception for detached buildings that was then removed in NEC 2011, ground and neutral are supposed to be bonded in only one place for a service panel -- at the service panel. You have to derive a ground at a 14-series receptacle for it to work properly, and this means either running a separate ground conductor all the way back to the panel (legal, to code, and safest, but most expensive), leaving neutral unconnected (works for 240V loads but will blow up 120V appliances if some 120V/240V load such as an RV is plugged in through that adapter), or bonding neutral to ground at the 14-xx end (in the case of a failure, could create a path through your cord if an appliance fails and current returns via the grounding conductor, which could burn up your cord).
These concerns are minimized when the Tesla is the only load, but again when we build electrical infrastructure we have to assume the user has no knowledge of anything special that's put in place. If someone picks up your cord and uses it to hook up an RV, it could cause serious problems and destroy the RV's appliances. This is why I say if you insist upon building a FrankenCord, that you label it clearly as "FOR TESLA CHARGING ONLY" and "NEUTRAL BONDED TO GROUND" (or ahatever you've done), cut it in half when it's no longer needed, and keep it with the car -- don't leave it lying in someone's garage.
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You can build a 250V, 30A fuse holder or circuit breaker in-line. The problem there, of course, is that you won't be able to charge at 40A when you're plugged in a 50A receptacle, you *always* have to limit current to 24A, instead of just when you're plugged into a 30A receptacle. There is no way to determine whether you're plugged into a 30A or 50A receptacle if you make this modification.
I'm confused with your answer above. Let's assume a 14-30 Tesla adapter is not available when the car is delivered, so we use the available 14-50 adapter. We install a 14-50R and set the car to charge at 24A. We then install a 250V, 30A fuse holder or circuit breaker inline before the 14-50R. If a software update changes the charge rate to 40A, the 30A fuse blows and protects the wiring. Won't this work and yet allow you to charge at 40A at an RV park by just changing the charging rate to 40A in the software?
strider
Active Member
This is what I did but w/o the in-line fuse. I just pulled the 10-30 (hot-hot-ground) outlet and installed a 14-50 (left the neutral unconnected) then set the car to 24A. Only cost $9 for the outlet at Home Depot. Once the 10-30 adapter is available from Tesla I'll swap it all back but for now it's fine and I didn't have a choice. I wasn't about to spend a bundle on rewiring for a few months of UL and manufacturing delay. When I plug in at night I watch the screen to verify it's limiting to 24A and all is well.
montgom626 referenced adelman's post who talked about modifying the 14-50 you receive from Tesla. You'd have to modify the UMC cord to put an inline fuse holder in there. That would limit you always to the lower charge rate.
You're talking about protecting your home-built extension cord (from your thread) with a fuse holder -- that would provide some protection against your potential failure. That said, keep in mind my insurance warning, it still applies.
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You can't guarantee it will remain there. See my scenario above, and my warning about insurance. Even if your house burns due to something else -- say a kitchen grease fire -- your insurance can refuse to pay your claim based on you violating the NEC with a non-listed device.
adelman
R 539, S VIN S44, X Sig#1
I concur. On a 10-30 and 10-50, the neutral blade is used as a ground and IS connected.
Yes, and that hardware is IN the Tesla-manufactured NEMA 14-30 adapter. The rest of the charge cable "knows" which adapter is plugged into it and reports the available current to the car on this basis. If you're not comfortable with this mis-reporting using a NEMA 14-50 adapter modified to fit a NEMA 14-30 socket, then the best thing for you to do is to just buy the Tesla part.
You're saying that you have a properly installed "to code" NEMA 14-30R. It should have 10AWG wire and a 30A circuit breaker. The circuit breaker protects the wire, so the size of the circuit breaker needs to match the size of the wire installed. You replace the 14-30R with a 14-50R on a "temporary" basis. You don't need to add another inline fuse or breaker "near" the 14-50R; it and the wire will still be protected by the original 30A breaker. Try to draw 40A, and the feed breaker will pop.
The only time you need to put your own fuse holder in is if you plug something that is under-rated into an outlet with a higher rating, eg, we make an extension code with 10AWG (30A) wire and put a NEMA 14-50 plug on it, but expect to turn the current down to 24A (or we use a connector not rated for 50A elsewhere in the cord).
I'm talking about modifying a 14-50 connector to use it on a SMALLER circuit. The SMALLER circuit would already be protected at the feed.
Read your insurance policy. Mine has no such exclusion for use of a non-UL listed device.
It better not. Your Tesla charge cord, when used with 220V (or 110V > 20A), violated NEC 625 (1999). NEC 625 (1999) requires that the EVSE (EV Service Equipment) for 240VAC be permanently connected (i.e., not plugged into a 14-50R). Later versions of the NEC allow certain UL listed cords to be used that aren't hard-wired, so you would need to know which revision of the NEC that the place you're charging at has adopted. (I also believe that their use is restricted to "indoors", so the use of a 14-50R at a mobile home park, eg, would violate the terms of the UL listing and hence the NEC.)
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