Because the car does most of the work.
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FSD v12.x (end to end AI)
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
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- #fixphantombraking autopilot chill is not chill elon is an ass fix fsd extreme late deceleration fsd does not commit to go fsd does not maintain proper speed fsd hard and late braking fsd has decision wobble fsd jerky driving fsd late deceleration fsd sometimes may not detect train crossings fsd stops too early too quickly fsd stops too far behind line fsd tailgating in city streets
Not really relevant the point I was making. But substitute back seat with front seat, or L3+ with L4+. I was describing a scenario where you would be paying less attention to the road.
Most of the work of driving is deciding what to do. Moving the pedals and steering wheel is trivial and doesn't require any real physical effort.
Would need to be L4 for this. L3 requires you to take control within a few seconds of being asked so you need to be in the driver's seat using your laptop.
GeoffEV
Member
Being aware of traffic and monitoring what FSD is doing without having to steer and control the vehicle's speed makes for a relaxing trip with the Monitor arriving at destination feeling rested (instead of relieved or exhausted).
I got the trial last night and did a few drives with it already. It's MUCH improved over the v11 trial, but I'll probably turn it back off this afternoon until they add back an option to switch between between FSDS and TACC quickly. Here's the list of things that are issues for me on the roads around here:
1) Most of the roads I drive on are speed limit 55 and therefore have no posted speed limit signs. The car chooses a speed limit of anywhere between 20mph and 50mph on these roads. In both speed modes I end up having to control the accelerator manually for large portions of the trip to avoid putting along at half the speed (or less!) of traffic. I'm not sure if it would speed up with a car behind and I'm not willing to inconvenience someone else to try to find out.
2) Most roads I'm on are one lane each way with no shoulder. The car wants to hug the center line, even with oncoming traffic getting close.
3) A lot of the roads I drive on have a lot of potholes. In every case, the potholes can be avoided by moving to the right within the lane, but the car always stays centered or to the left of center and therefore tries to hit almost every pothole.
4) The car starts braking about where I want it to for stop signs, but I want it to brake smoothly with constant deceleration. Instead it hits the brakes hard and lets off and repeats that multiple times. I found myself manually controlling the accelerator for almost all stops (and there are a lot around here).
5) My preferred method of satisfying the steering wheel nag was pressing the cruise control button since that has no chance of accidental disengagement or changing settings. That no longer works on v12.
6) I tried to do a trip from within my driveway to daycare, manually choosing a specific route to avoid a road closure. As soon as I enabled FSDS, it changed back to the route through the closed section of road and would repeatedly change back when I re-selected the other route a few times. I had to pull out of the driveway the other direction before turning on FSDS.
Overall TACC with manual steering is much less work and works better than FSDS with manual accelerator for the roads I drive on, so that's the setting I'm going to use unless they bring back the double-click option so I can pick one or the other while driving.
1) Most of the roads I drive on are speed limit 55 and therefore have no posted speed limit signs. The car chooses a speed limit of anywhere between 20mph and 50mph on these roads. In both speed modes I end up having to control the accelerator manually for large portions of the trip to avoid putting along at half the speed (or less!) of traffic. I'm not sure if it would speed up with a car behind and I'm not willing to inconvenience someone else to try to find out.
2) Most roads I'm on are one lane each way with no shoulder. The car wants to hug the center line, even with oncoming traffic getting close.
3) A lot of the roads I drive on have a lot of potholes. In every case, the potholes can be avoided by moving to the right within the lane, but the car always stays centered or to the left of center and therefore tries to hit almost every pothole.
4) The car starts braking about where I want it to for stop signs, but I want it to brake smoothly with constant deceleration. Instead it hits the brakes hard and lets off and repeats that multiple times. I found myself manually controlling the accelerator for almost all stops (and there are a lot around here).
5) My preferred method of satisfying the steering wheel nag was pressing the cruise control button since that has no chance of accidental disengagement or changing settings. That no longer works on v12.
6) I tried to do a trip from within my driveway to daycare, manually choosing a specific route to avoid a road closure. As soon as I enabled FSDS, it changed back to the route through the closed section of road and would repeatedly change back when I re-selected the other route a few times. I had to pull out of the driveway the other direction before turning on FSDS.
Overall TACC with manual steering is much less work and works better than FSDS with manual accelerator for the roads I drive on, so that's the setting I'm going to use unless they bring back the double-click option so I can pick one or the other while driving.
Not to get too wonky on quality systems, but almost everything requires calibration periodically. There are many stresses - thermal, component decay, etc.
My Tesla has two different tire brands on the rear. They are wearing differently. Tesla SW keeps advising me that there is a tire tread wear issue.
Part of great SW is periodic checking of wear issues and calibrations. I expect Tesla is watching a lot of aging and potential variables over time.
It may even be that uneven tire wear might have impact on FSD and positional accuracy consistency. Fun stuff.
FTFY
Steering and TACC control are assistance that I use a lot although I can't always with 2024.3.10 on my current monthly 3 hour drive because the car keeps reading the highway # as the speed limit. Use of it requires changing my settings, though.
The ability to have it also slow down as it comes into small towns, stop at lights or stop signs, make turns, and all those other FSDS promises, along with me being able to look at the screen (while holding the wheel) to read how long to my destination, or find another podcast) without being chastised, would make this Monitor truly feel rested on arrival. I don't have that with FSDS currently. It can do it but it can't do it consistently.
My life doesn't include a lot of driving in places the Mercedes would allow me to use their L3 but if it consistently works within its boundaries and I spent a lot of time on divided highways in heavy traffic, it would definitely allow me to feel rested on arrival.
I currently don't seem to have that with my car for my driving this summer, simply because the rental cottage requires me to drive on Highway 60 at 80kph. And the car can't handle that.
So I'm using AP outside its defined capabilities since I'm using it on a 2 lane, undivided, highway, but I'm not using NoA or stoplight/sign stopping. TACC is what is dodgy on that highway, lane keep works fine. FSDS is a complete fail as it is not restful at all to constantly be driving watching for a highway number sign and preparing to override the abrupt slowdown by the car; at least with TACC once I override the speed limit offset, it stays offset, changing the displayed perceived speed limit but no changing the speed the vehicle is traveling.
Actually the signals are quite intelligent, at night my left turn lane gets an arrow a second after I stop at the line. It's the geometry of the intersection that makes perfect sense to a human (you go left, right, or straight across) but FSD just gets flummoxed because IT thinks going straight means taking a left...or taking a right when coming from the other direction... until it gets into the middle of the intersection and goes, "Uh oh, that's not right" and thrashes. It's not pretty.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Most of the driving time is spent doing "TACC" and "Lane Keeping". FSD does that well. At intersections it needs monitoring.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Yes - everyone wants uber for $99 a month
It costs me that much in Uber to go from my home to the airport - one way.
PianoAl
Active Member
Please report again after ten drives or so. I've seen a world of difference from one drive to the next without recalibrating. I hope you're right.
PianoAl
Active Member
I've seen all those things. Concerning Item 5, you really can learn a hand-on-the-wheel approach that rarely disengages unintentionally.
I used to use button or stalk presses to satisfy the nag, but decided having a hand on the wheel is safer, giving you a faster response to rare time-critical situations.
Watched the Waymo video of it obeying police directing traffic and even complex hand signals in the Waymo thread. Very impressive. Had a chance for some hand signals this morning and was a basic fail. At an all way Stop signalman was holding up our lane (car in front so no test). When our lanes turn he started signaling the car in from and it went straight and I was turning right. Of course he hand signaled me to turn right but FSDS wanted to do the Full A$$ Stop at the stop line and "look". So I pressed the accelerator to move along and it "yelled" at me. And as usual I cursed back. 
I usually keep hands on the wheel even with FSD engaged, but apparently with too light of a touch when I'm on a straight road. It feels to me like the amount of torque needed to clear the nag is variable depending on why the car decided to give me the nag and when the torque required is at the high level I have about a 50% chance of accidentally cancelling the FSD when I apply my steering wheel torque. Incidentally, the cruise control button could only cancel the first nag "level" and if it got to the second "level" (usually triggered if the camera sees me pick up my phone off the charger), it didn't work with that button. Now I'm back to clicking the right scroll wheel sideways as that still works in all situations.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I just disengage in such scenarios.Watched the Waymo video of it obeying police directing traffic and even complex hand signals in the Waymo thread. Very impressive. Had a chance for some hand signals this morning and was a basic fail. At an all way Stop signalman was holding up our lane (car in front so no test). When our lanes turn he started signaling the car in from and it went straight and I was turning right. Of course he hand signaled me to turn right but FSDS wanted to do the Full A$$ Stop at the stop line and "look". So I pressed the accelerator to move along and it "yelled" at me. And as usual I cursed back.
What is the fun in that and also you can't test to know what it will or will not do.
inquiring minds (and even dense [although that sounds like a good thing 
] like mine) want to know. 
UPL is the most time consuming as well as the most unsafe maneuvers of all time. UPL only makes sense for roads that have extremely low density traffic.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
You can always "check" once to see what FSD would do - but once you know the scenario is not handled, using FSD in this situation becomes more of a pain than ADASWhat is the fun in that and also you can't test to know what it will or will not do.
ps : This is exactly why a lot of people keep saying FSD is "useless" etc. For them it is more painful to use than being of any real help. Everyone has a different point of pain / useful balance.
FSDtester#1
"Circle Jerk Old Guard" per cyborgLIS aka "CJOG"
Or you could just roll the dice and let FSD do whatever it wants... Would make for a good Youtube video....You can always "check" once to see what FSD would do - but once you know the scenario is not handled, using FSD in this situation becomes more of a pain than ADAS
ps : This is exactly why a lot of people keep saying FSD is "useless" etc. For them it is more painful to use than being of any real help. Everyone has a different point of pain / useful balance.
Try not to get shot by the cop your car is about to run over.
