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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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OK so the Model X goes 325 miles without a switch to 2170. That's the same as the LR Model 3. The 205-mile Audi looks pathetic. The Mercedes had a 200-mile range for a few minutes before they withdrew it and said "we, uh, haven't released the range yet."

The competition just got a whole lot more frustrated.

And 2170 looms in the distance I assume.... since it doesn't charge above 200kW.
 
I can see three factors:

....
  • Finally, the Crew Dragon explosion a few days ago is a really big problem for SpaceX and must be weighing on him too. This could delay the crewed launch with U.S. astronauts launch by a year.
This. It was bad. I agree, it will set them back at least a year and Boeing will beat them to a crew launch.
 
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As a generalist, you need to have a couple simple questions in mind: if I summon a car to get me places, and there's a car in the fleet nearby, will it be able to get to me?
Good questions, yes. I don't know where you live. But for me, the answer is "no".

Will it take me where I need to go?
"No"

My vacuum cleaner kicks off at 1pm every day. It got a lot of space to deal with, pretty complicated too. Yeah it gets stuck here and there, so maybe twice a month I have to pull it from somewhere and take it to its charging base.
I had one of those too! Got stuck every day every time! Returned it for a refund. Hired someone to clean the place. *end anecdote*

Would I go back to hiring someone to clean the place just because it fails ~7% of the time? Hell no, this is good enough and I'm sure in the 3 years since I got this vac, they came up with something that would only fail 1% of the time, once a quarter maybe. Same here, as long as these FSD cars aren't presenting a safety hazard, even if they're not perfect the added safety and economic value is so overwhelming that dealing with a few glitches here and there is going to be well worth it.

Glitches like occasionally being stopped dead mid-trip and having to call a taxi at random locations? Well, OK, if you're cool with that, fine. In some major cities, it's not a problem, you can just step out and get in the subway.

Not to get too off topic on this, but let me use the doctors example to help illustrate that the issue with machine learning isn't in the capability of the neural network, but in the paradigm space that humans trying to train it operate in (i.e. are you asking the right question?) and in the quality of a training set.

If you could quantify a good chunk of critical data about a person, such as:
1. Genome
2. Lifestyle stuff: diet, predominant world view and psychological states, sleeping habits, envoronment, etc
3. Gut biome
4. Historical data on lifestyle, injuries, medications taken, past traumatic events, etc.
5. Current comprehensive blood, urine, stool, fMRI, whatever else tests that can be done
6. A bunch of other stuff I can't think of now

..then you add labeling to this dataset. Someone shows up at the doc and we do 1-6, they get a diagnosis and a prescription and then they die within half a year. Or they recover. Or they don't do what the prescription says and do something else, and have a different outcome.

So you stuff all of this into a training dataset. And I bet you will start getting things that will make a lot of people real uncomfortable, but also creepy accurate. Like "stop eating cookies or die in 23 month". "Decreased life span if take this antibiotic by 3 years, not going to help with the current symptom. Go to Hawaii instead, healed in 3 weeks". "Divorce or heart attack in 3.4 years".

Our use of machine learning is limited by how well can we present real world conditions and outcomes to it. Sure, currently we do stuff like train to be able to classify cancer by image. But that is only because we haven't learned (or, as I think would soon be the case, are dis-incentivesed to even try) to collect more representative data in more dimensions and train bigger NN's with those bigger datasets.

For self-driving, overwhelming majority of the overall problem can be broken down into well understood classification and prediction sub-problems and solved with an appropriately big and representative training set. Which is what Tesla is doing, and have gotten fairly far along that road. Driving is a lot simpler than medicine, but that is not to say medicine can't be much better solved by machine learning. Same thing applies: it's a huge multiplier when you can train one "uber-doctor" on all the corner cases that any one doctor would never ever be able to see in their lifetime, not even 1%. And also train that doctor without any preconceived notions of what should and should not work, that would consider any solution. Same with humans and driving. Except driving is something that won't encounter all sorts of moral and other ways humans will resist acknowledging reality, which I fully expect to happen in the case of medicine. Drove from A to B, no accidents, reasonable speed -- all good, we're on board.

So I actually rated this "love", because you're right, "Our use of machine learning is limited by how well can we present real world conditions and outcomes to it".

But this is much, much, harder than you think it is.

One of the things you're wildly wrong about is the difficulty of actually getting the right dataset. In medicine, we don't even know what data we need to collect -- the importance of the gut biome was not recognized until recently and people who talked about it were considered cranks, for instance. Half the work of a good doctor is considering collecting different data.

Many medical studies end up being debunked when lurking variables are discovered. NN's overfit and would give tons of bad advice if you didn't account for this, which is very hard to account for. They're just correlation machines -- they don't know causation; that would require a different type of computer system.

In driving, the problem is far easier because we do know that we can do it mostly with vision + maybe some listening. The correlation-causation problems remain.

In medicine, the really tough problem is that we have trouble even measuring the outcomes. Then there's a worse problem -- we have trouble even determining what the desirable outcomes are -- people actually disagree. Different people have different health goals.

Driving has a bunch of situations like this too. Tesla hasn't even gotten to those situations where people disagree on the desirable outcomes. With human driving, to some extent, the human is given the decision-making power. Musk even discussed the tradeoff between getting into traffic and risking fender-benders in LA traffic, and basically said the driver would decide. I don't see any way to avoid that, which prohibits FULL self-driving.
 
With this update, it seems like the interior refresh and any possible battery changes are not going to happen until Q3 at the earliest(like the interior leak said a long time ago)

This was predictable: a lot of people like the current interior, but would like a refreshed power train and more range. A lot of people like the S/X interior over the 3.

Interior refresh will be done only when this source of demand has been exhausted.

I'd also like to note that CleanTechnica has some excellent sources, article 3 days ago:

 
So when he said to Ark Investment "we will have FSD by the end of the year, I work extremely close to the autonomous team so I'm fairly certain that we will be feature complete by the end of this year" is completely talking out of his ass?

YES. Basically he isn't even aware of many of the problems which need to be solved. When he's aware of them, he might be able to project a plausible timeline.

I strongly suspect that the Board pushed Autonomy Day ahead of the S/X refresh announcement so that "Musk is acting crazy again" news would be overwhelmed by the refresh to Model S & X.
 
Wow, so they are creating new ICD10 codes for your issues? :eek:
The codes have been split and reclassified during my diagnosis period.

(P.S. And in one case, even the split codes are actually no good. Diagnosis required figuring out what was really going on biologically, and the codes are all just syndromes, lists of symptoms, not actual causes. Eventually there will be a real code for what happened.)
 
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This. It was bad. I agree, it will set them back at least a year and Boeing will beat them to a crew launch.

Too bad SpaceX didn’t just test with a new capsule like Boeing did. SpaceX’s capsule has been to space and in the ocean. Hopefully they will just find an issue with the salt water. But in the long run, this will still be a good thing for SpaceX. Better to find out any weaknesses now.
 
Hmm, it sounds like my wife's X will be "Ludicrous" :D

He said he is getting 4,000 cycles on the batteries for storage. Maybe it depends to what % is usable life.
He also stated last week or so that battery replacements at say 300k mi would only cost $5-7k. Then there's the battery recycle business and cost going down with refinements like dropping cobalt.
Maxwell would be swell be not essential. Unless that Panasonic thing is a serious thorn.
Lol, didn't Maxwell make the best tapes? Just when I thought TDK was a thing of the past, they now own the sensor world like gyros in my product. Never know...
Someone is showing their age. ;)
Based on what I see everyday "legally safe driving" requires 1-2 brain cells dangling from a piece of dental floss suspended in a large oval box. So yes, Tesla has already won. Too bad the analysts use 4-5 cells on 2 pieces of floss.

A cruise car took me off the line about ten minutes ago, seems they are at least driving faster than anticipated.
Agreed.
Based on California "drivers" If breeding was as difficult as driving the population would be in decline.
 
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So when he said to Ark Investment "we will have FSD by the end of the year, I work extremely close to the autonomous team so I'm fairly certain that we will be feature complete by the end of this year" is completely talking out of his ass? As in he has never seen any of his cars do any complex street manipulation, not even in a simulator?

Last year in OCT, he said "our cars will have the ability to fully self drive by early next year"...and here we are, just finished the FSD investor event. He also said 35k version of the car middle of this year and that happened prior to that time line.

I don't know..I feel like he is hitting deadlines pretty spot on lately.
Good for you, you are new. Just please be careful to not end up being a collateral damage of his delivery predictions.
I strongly believe Musk often talks out of his ass; more than four years of observation and singular tracking of everything Tesla/TSLA; as my almost exclusive investment.
Doesn't diminishes the genius that he is, the most important historical figure of the 21st century.
 
My best guess is the stock isn't going to move much on this ER. Anyone that doesn't know the financials will look at least much worse than the last couple of quarters hasn't been following Tesla at all. If they look better than expected, it's hard to imagine it will be by much. We could very well see one of those days where we get a decent dip that climbs back up by the end of the day with a net effect of not much. I think the option sellers will make out very well this week.
Ok, never mind.
 
I think the problem they have with that is twofold:
One. They would have to set something up to replicate that kind of condition, in which case all the detractors would yell "staged" and "faked".

Two. They could have done an obvious thing like stopping before entering the intersection from a parking lot--because most drivers don't do that, at least around here they don't--there would have been "it's pokey", "like grandma driving".
I like #2. I really would have been impressed by some sort of crowded parking lot maneuver even (though, being low speed, those have a fair margin for error)