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Tesla Gigafactory Investor Thread

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So if GF1 is limited to 50 GWh, this gives only 3 years to site and build GF2. That is a seriously tight timeline. Now if GF1 is expanded to 75 GWh, then 2019 is covered, but 90 GWh of capacity will be needed in 2020.

So growing at 50% annually imposes a relentless timeline for Gigafactory development. In my opinion, Tesla should be selecting a site for GF2 right now. The difficulty, however, is in bringing investors along for GF2 before the pilot facility has demonstrated the desired capabilities. This is why GF1 needs to be expanded at least to 75 GWh and the pilot needs to demonstrate success in 2016. Without both of these, Tesla will not be able to pursue aggressively the stationary market.

No. Now that GM is "serious" (read GM thread about the Bolt) obviously they will build the next several GFs to support their entries into the electric car field. LG won't be able to support the demand, and GM will soon discover that they need to build their own batteries in order to sell Bolts at a decent price.
 
The source seems to be Steve Hill, who is referencing the earnings report conference call. The journalist did not fact check Hill. So did Hill simply misrepresent the CC, or does he know additional information which he inaccurately attributes to the CC? Given his privileged access to Tesla he very well may know more than was released in the CC, and he may have believed there was no breach of confidentiality on the matter because the CC is public information.

If my memory serves me, didn't Musk make some statements suggesting that Tesla would not be pursuing a second Gigafactory any time soon? If someone has that quote handy, that would be helpful. My concern about that quote was that it s
did not really jibe with GF1 at only 50 GWh while reaching for a larger stationary market. GF1 at 75 GWh buys Tesla just 12 months that they can delay pursuing GF2. So my ears tingle at the suggestion that GF1 could be expanded to 100 GWh because that allows Tesla to delay GF2 by about 20 months.

I would remind you that as part of the deal Tesla had access to purchase a substantial amount of extra land as part of their deal when selecting that site. Clearly they had expansion *at some point* in mind when they went there.

I'm not concerned about the cost. The ROI on the Gigafactory is too high to worry about that. What concerns me is the ability to scale up production in a timely manner. Growing revenue at 50% per year places great demands on battery production capacity, and shifting more capacity to stationary places even greater demands on this capacity. At 33% stationary, Tesla will need 40 GWh of capacity in 2019, but at 66% stationary, 60 GWh capacity is needed. So if Tesla is serious about the stationary, additional Gigafactory capacity will need to come online in 2018. So if GF1 is limited to 50 GWh, this gives only 3 years to site and build GF2. That is a seriously tight timeline. Now if GF1 is expanded to 75 GWh, then 2019 is covered, but 90 GWh of capacity will be needed in 2020. So this gives Tesla 4 years to site and build GF2. If GF2 is expanded to 100 GWh, then 2020 is covered, but 135 GWh will be needed in 2021.

So growing at 50% annually imposes a relentless timeline for Gigafactory development. In my opinion, Tesla should be selecting a site for GF2 right now. The difficulty, however, is in bringing investors along for GF2 before the pilot facility has demonstrated the desired capabilities. This is why GF1 needs to be expanded at least to 75 GWh and the pilot needs to demonstrate success in 2016. Without both of these, Tesla will not be able to pursue aggressively the stationary market.

Given their timeline of starting GF1 seriously around the June-ish timeframe last year and starting targeting the start of production in early to mid 2016, I would think that they would need to select another site right about the time the first cells are coming out of GF1 in order to target the start of production in 2018. Also keep in mind that Panasonic is increasing their output with additional factories and such which will likely lead to more capacity that way.
 
No. Now that GM is "serious" (read GM thread about the Bolt) obviously they will build the next several GFs to support their entries into the electric car field. LG won't be able to support the demand, and GM will soon discover that they need to build their own batteries in order to sell Bolts at a decent price.

I'm not sure what you are saying "no" to. Do you mean this in jest. I certainly believe that GM needs to make their own batteries, perhaps in a JV as Tesla does, to keep their cost undercontrol.

In another thread, I was just commenting about the situation perhaps by 2020 where Tesla has cost down to $100/kWh while other automakers are paying suppliers perhaps $300/kWh. In this sort of scenario, Tesla has cost advantage over gas drivetrains, while ICE is still cheaper than batteries for competitors. This would be a distressing situation for competitors. Margins are compressed on conventional vehicles, but even worse if they try to sell EVs. The rate at which they lose market share pretty much depends on how quickly Tesla can roll out Gigafactory capacity. To avoid this nightmare scenario, they cannot afford to rely on suppliers that are going to charge a premium well above Tesla's internal cost of batteries, and their suppliers must be motivated to scale up production at least as fast as Tesla. That is a really tall order for a supplier. I wish GM all the best in cultivating the supply chain they're going to need.
 
I would remind you that as part of the deal Tesla had access to purchase a substantial amount of extra land as part of their deal when selecting that site. Clearly they had expansion *at some point* in mind when they went there.



Given their timeline of starting GF1 seriously around the June-ish timeframe last year and starting targeting the start of production in early to mid 2016, I would think that they would need to select another site right about the time the first cells are coming out of GF1 in order to target the start of production in 2018. Also keep in mind that Panasonic is increasing their output with additional factories and such which will likely lead to more capacity that way.

Yeah, I'm in basic agreement with your points. Nevada was selected in part because it was quite willing to support Tesla's ambition to build fast. So I see it as an ideal place for speed. Other locations may not be so accomodating. So eventually multiple sited will be developed in parallel.

I have long kept a theory to myself that each GF location would have the land capacity for 150 to 300 GWh. The idea is this: select site, build for a year, add about 15 GWh capacity each year for 10 to 20 years. This is linear growth in one campus. The workforce becomes more efficient over time such that eventually 10k employees can suffice for 300 GWh output. But linear growth will not suffice for Tesla's exponential, actuallylogistic, growth ambition. So it is necessary to accelerate from adding just 15 GWh per year. So start one new campus each year. Thus, you get quadratic growth. Each year you are adding, 15, 30, 45, 60, etc. causing cumulative capacity to grow 15, 45, 90, 120, etc. By 2025 you have say 10 campuses which will ultimate produce 200 GWh per campus, 2000 GWh total, but as of 2025 produce about 500 to 750 GWh. So this is quadratic growth upto 2025, then the growth rate tapers down over the next 20 years, at which point the market is saturated, and technological gains in density are sufficient to meet nominal growth in the saturated maket. So the beauty of this progression is that it breaks down exponential growth into two linear process. Adding one new site per year is linear growth for top management to oversee. Then within each campus there is linear growth which campus management can oversee. Quadratic growth comes close enough to exponential that gaps can be managed by changing the mix of automotive and stationary output and adjustments to the rate of build out. Note that when you have 10 campuses each with room for 15 GWh growth, you can grow total capacity by 0 to 150 GWh for that year as needed to meet demand. Longrun it gives you logistic growth which can be adjusted to avoid overcapacity.

This basic outline is consistent with growing revenue 50% annually until 2025. Additionally to service both transportation and electricity market in say 30 years, Musk suggested may require some 200,000 GWh of batteries. Longrun perhaps 7% will be repreplaced each year, so total manufacturing capacity needs to reach about 14,000 GWh per year. So if Tesla has 2000 GWh capacity, that's a market share of 15%. Tesla could capture more or less market share depending on how competitive the field becomes. Longrun batteries are a commodity, though there will continue to be a lot of technology development that goes with this like microchips or solar panels, but I do think that the early entrants, say before 2025, will enjoy the highest profitability and will gain the experience to shut out other competitors on price and technology. So it is best to lock in 10 or so campuses prior to 2025, when you can get the quickest return on investment. Thereafter, saving yet more cost on further expansion and improving worker productivity will be key to competition until the market is saturated.
 
Battery Costs and Model S/X Profits

great discussion on gigafactory scaling jhm. personally i think tesla will need to wait until they are making cells at GF1 at (reasonably) high volumes to have a proof of concept worthy of launching GF2. given what elon's history of setting insane goals for his staff, i wouldn't be surprised if elon is asking his teams to accomplish the following:

i) high volume production of cells by the end of Q1 2016
ii) followed by march 2016 model E unveiling
iii) where tesla announces that the model E is ahead of schedule
iv) and will begin deliveries in mid-2017
v) given this timeframe tesla announces it will open up reservations for the model E
vi) tesla's website crashes and the company accumulates 100k+ reservations in one week's time
vii) tesla announces reservations number and epic short squeeze ensues
viii) tesla announces capital raise to fund GF2 that will be required to meet demand

any thoughts? :biggrin:

surfside
 
great discussion on gigafactory scaling jhm. personally i think tesla will need to wait until they are making cells at GF1 at (reasonably) high volumes to have a proof of concept worthy of launching GF2. given what elon's history of setting insane goals for his staff, i wouldn't be surprised if elon is asking his teams to accomplish the following:

i) high volume production of cells by the end of Q1 2016
ii) followed by march 2016 model E unveiling
iii) where tesla announces that the model E is ahead of schedule
iv) and will begin deliveries in mid-2017
v) given this timeframe tesla announces it will open up reservations for the model E
vi) tesla's website crashes and the company accumulates 100k+ reservations in one week's time
vii) tesla announces reservations number and epic short squeeze ensues
viii) tesla announces capital raise to fund GF2 that will be required to meet demand

any thoughts? :biggrin:

surfside

IX) Keith Rupert Murdoch Speaks the words, "TESLA LIVES" and then I dunno! :smile:
 
Surfside, I agree with the general sentiment leading to viii.

However, there is always the difference between what I might wish for, and what I think is realistic. Reading the tea leaves, I will guess that:

v-viii are quite plausible. In particular, I would predict reservation number will become many multiples (3x, 4x, 5x) of projected annual sales for Bolt (self-limited to 36K/yr production), even before Bolt ships. This, more than anything will surprise (yet again) much of the market.

i,iii-iv I'm not so sure. My guess is he has already set a pretty high bar internally just to meet ii (march reveal), which he said was an aspirational goal, will be a tall order.
 
i,iii-iv I'm not so sure. My guess is he has already set a pretty high bar internally just to meet ii (march reveal), which he said was an aspirational goal, will be a tall order.
i certainly don't disagree, but one thing that has stuck out at me from reading the elon musk biography is how elon pushes his people on multiple fronts at the same time...

and don't get me wrong, i don't think my list of events is necessarily going to happen -- i just think this is likely what elon is asking his people to accomplish (in a word: the impossible).

I'll be very surprised if the march 2016 Model 3 unveiling is following after the end of Q1 2016 ;)

But except for that (and the crash :p ), what you say is what I'm hoping for - but don't dear to believe :)
touche! :frown:

surfside
 
Surfside, yeah, I think getting the proof of concept nailed in the first half of 2016 is really important and a near requirement before announcing GF2. This is why the option to increase GF1 capacity by 50% or more is a critical back up plan. We don't want any hiccups or delays with the pilot plant to compromise its growth ambition just 3 years out, 2019.

Regarding the launch of Model 3, that too depends critically on rolling out Gigafactory capacity in a timely manner. I suspect that Musk is strongly motivated to beat GM to market. All that I would add on this is that taking deposits before the Bolt is on the market will have the potential to lock in sales. Imagine Tesla sitting on 100k reservations with $5k deposits each, while GM eeks out 20k Bolts in the first year. The market will see that a Tesla is worth waiting for.
 
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Probably not, but if they managed to get control or partial control *cheap enough*, it would be a good deal for Tesla's vertical integration plans. The nickel mining also produces cobalt (a lot of people have been wondering where Tesla will get a North American cobalt supply) and managanese (also used in the new Tesla Powerwall batteries). That's three of the metals where supply has been in question.

The first big Cobalt mine in Idaho seems to be making good progress. That also wouldn't be far from the factory. I believe Formation Metals (a Canadian small company) owns the permits and is building out the mine this year, hoping to launch by early/mid 2016. That would be in time for the Gigafactory to use them as a Cobalt source for sure. Heck, Tesla could snatch/buy them up it seems, they are tiny in capital costs & cash really...
 
The first big Cobalt mine in Idaho seems to be making good progress. That also wouldn't be far from the factory. I believe Formation Metals (a Canadian small company) owns the permits and is building out the mine this year, hoping to launch by early/mid 2016. That would be in time for the Gigafactory to use them as a Cobalt source for sure. Heck, Tesla could snatch/buy them up it seems, they are tiny in capital costs & cash really...

I wouldn't recommend Tesla get directly in the mining business, but buying directly from a mining company does seem to be their gameplan. Since they had commented previously that cutting out the middle man (the market exchange) and negotiating a contract directly with a supplier (mining company) would give Tesla a lower price and give the mining company a guaranteed buyer.

So I would look for a company who is likely to be producing their supply at a healthy volume, preferably close by geographically, extracting in environmentally friendly ways (at least as friendly as you can be), and there might be some other indicators to look for as well. But that would be the key things I would think Tesla would strive for. Location, Volume, Cost, and Environment.
 
Gigafactory info from the other thread: Tesla Gigafactory - Page 51

At 6:49, he said they bought 1000 acres to start, bought 1200 acres last week, and are buying another 350 acres now.

Then at 16:15, he says superstructure Block 1 or A (first of seven) will be 2.5 million square feet, then they added "another floor 41", and then "another floor 23.5". I am not sure what units he is using for the last two numbers.
 
Gigafactory info from the other thread: Tesla Gigafactory - Page 51

At 6:49, he said they bought 1000 acres to start, bought 1200 acres last week, and are buying another 350 acres now.

Then at 16:15, he says superstructure Block 1 or A (first of seven) will be 2.5 million square feet, then they added "another floor 41", and then "another floor 23.5". I am not sure what units he is using for the last two numbers.
Those are the heights in feet of the elevated floor slabs above the ground floor slab. He mentioned something about a mezzanine in the video, so it could be that the ground floor is at 0', mezzanine at 23.5', second floor at 41', and he did say roof at 70'.
 
What concerns me is the ability to scale up production in a timely manner.

Unless the factory is mega-mega-automated and therefore runs with only a few human workers, I'm not sure how they're going to get the workers. It is located in the middle of nowhere. With, at the moment, no public transportation. Even if they managed to hire enough people, they can't live nearby, and so I don't think they could all get to work by private car without turning the entire area into a 5 mph crawlfest every morning.

The county apparently expects lots of employment. This doesn't seem possible without building either dormitories or public transportation to get people to work. And if the county's optimistic projections of 300,000 workers in the area is right (it may not be) I don't even think buses would be effective.

Maybe Tesla will have to take a page out of the 19th century playbook and build its own passenger rail line for the workers.

Even with the mere 6500 employees which Tesla initally projects, if you divide that evenly into 3 shifts (unlikely), you have 2166 workers coming in every shift change and 2166 going out every shift change.

With everyone driving their own car, this basically maxes out one lane in and one lane out. There are also other employers in this area already, though, with 4500 workers... so that's using up most of the capacity of two lanes each way. The ensuing traffic jams would disrupt the schedule-critical truck traffic, of which there's going to have to be a lot....
 
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Unless the factory is mega-mega-automated and therefore runs with only a few human workers, I'm not sure how they're going to get the workers. It is located in the middle of nowhere. With, at the moment, no public transportation. Even if they managed to hire enough people, they can't live nearby, and so I don't think they could all get to work by private car without turning the entire area into a 5 mph crawlfest every morning.

The county apparently expects lots of employment. This doesn't seem possible without building either dormitories or public transportation to get people to work. And if the county's optimistic projections of 300,000 workers in the area is right (it may not be) I don't even think buses would be effective.

Maybe Tesla will have to take a page out of the 19th century playbook and build its own passenger rail line for the workers.

Even with the mere 6500 employees which Tesla initally projects, if you divide that evenly into 3 shifts (unlikely), you have 2166 workers coming in every shift change and 2166 going out every shift change.

With everyone driving their own car, this basically maxes out one lane in and one lane out. There are also other employers in this area already, though, with 4500 workers... so that's using up most of the capacity of two lanes each way. The ensuing traffic jams would disrupt the schedule-critical truck traffic, of which there's going to have to be a lot....

Ok so, I can only tell you what was stated in the videos from the guy who apparently plays a big role in the building of not just the buildings out there but the associated infrastructure (water, power, sewer, roads, etc). This was the stated reason for building USA Pkwy as a four lane now, even though there isn't really any traffic to be had yet. With plans to build out other similar roads coming down off the interstate. He also said that most all of them actually run 5 shifts. 4 work shifts and a maintenance shift. On top of splitting everything by 4 (not 3), you have to consider that owners of the site have been working with all the businesses there in order to get everyone to put all their shift changes on different cycles, offset by 30 minutes. So Tesla's shifts might start at 8:00, WalMart 8:30, Diapers 9:00 and so on. This stretches all the traffic out evenly over the entire 24hour period instead of thinking about 5,000, 10,000, 60,000, or 300,000 people coming into the area (or leaving) at all the same start time (think... 9 to 5), you would effectively break that out over 30 minute chunks throughout the entire day. So you have now spread all the traffic out evenly over approximately 48 time period spacings (yes there will be some overlap... so lets assume that overlap extends for 1 hour period dropping it 24 periods), at any given moment you would then instead have only 208, 416, 2500, or 12500 cars on the road (using the same previously listed periods). This of course still becomes unmanageable at some point and further infrastructure expansions will be needed or programs put in place. Consider in the future of 300,000 people working in the area at that 12,500 number, implementing a carpool program with now your average car having just 2 people in it, you just cut back to 6,250 vehicles on the road at any given moment.

These are all relatively small numbers when dealing with populations and infrastructure.

As for how much automation at the Tesla factory specifically, consider that come March of next year when block 1 (of 7) goes live there will only be 300 employees working in that *massive* building.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and point of further clarity, If I recall the guy stated that USA Pkwy was already graded and cleared the right of way to expand that road out to 6 lanes in the future. Essentially they just need to put down the road when it is needed. He is clearly thinking ahead for when there is a lot more traffic than they deal with today.