RobStark
Well-Known Member
More likely the remainder of the next 9 Quarters will be Tesla bears continuing to talk absolute nonsense about the Model 3 until reality smacks them across the face.
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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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More likely the remainder of the next 9 Quarters will be Tesla bears continuing to talk absolute nonsense about the Model 3 until reality smacks them across the face.
Why not? The main selling point of electric motors is that 0 RPM oomph! What's not performance oriented about that? My leaf does 0-60 in over 10 seconds, yet it's "power" is quite noticable. The bolt will be ~3 seconds faster. With a 60kwh battery, I suspect there would be some "tuning" that can be done to the bolt's inverter and motor that would yield more performance.
Exactly.
I like the Bolt specs, features, and interior space. However a B-segment sized car for BMW 3 pricing (before tax credit) is not very compelling. It just doesn't have the style and presence of a $40k car. I think the C-segment sized Volt does, but I am sure not everyone will agree. The point is that I am willing to pay $40-50k for a very nice C sized car, but not for a nice B sized car.
As if that is not enough, the total lack of a national network of reliable fast chargers, and no plans whatsoever to address this issue, puts GM way behind Tesla.
GSP
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
I am aware of the torque advantages of an BEVs. However, I explained that the performance of all the vehicles you mentioned can be increased (afford-ably) with aftermarket equipment, and that they all look sportier than the Bolt.
The Bolt is an econo-box, with econo-box looks, at premium pricing. It will not have an all-round similar driving dynamic to any of the vehicles mentioned. If you look just at the GTI, you can purchase one cheaper than the Bolt, and then greatly increase its performance with an off-the-shelf APR upgrade, for the difference in price.
The Bolt simply can't compete with hot hatches, and it's not designed to.
We're just going to have to disagree on that econobox look. The other "hot" hatches only look sportier, because of their livery and "body kits". It's really a function of perception. Once the bolt have smoked enough hatches at the stoplight, there will be a perception change.
Looking at the other aspects, like its interior dimensions, it will be classified as a compact hatchback, maybe even mid-size. Add in the structure and weight of the battery pack, and it's safety rating should be great (they're aiming for all 5-stars if I recall). These things will all compare favorably to other compact sedans/hatches in the ICE variety.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
The point is that the Bolt won't be "smoking" hot hatches at the stoplight, nor will they be as nimble in the "twisties". As I said, for the same money you can get a higher performance hot-hatch. In the hot-hatch segment you have a large proportion of buyers actually interested in purchasing them to modify...this can't be done with the Bolt.
Here's what someone in a GTI would see as negatives with the Bolt:
1. Exterior aesthetics
2. Interior quality
3. Only performance advantage from 0-30, which is reduced with modification
4. No performance mods
5. Availability
No one purchases a Miata for it's 0-60 times, and likewise the hot-hatches are popular for their all-rounder performance...not straight-line.
Now, if you were to compare the Bolt to the Leaf, i-Miev, Kia Soul, e-golf, Focus-EV, etc...you've got a much more compelling vehicle in the Bolt, as it nearly turns all of those aforementioned negatives into positives, or cancels them out.
The Bolt just isn't going to compete with performance ICE...there are just too many compromises. It will steal a lot of BEV and Volt sales, I'd wager.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Looks and target segment does matter. For example, a boring looking Camry V6 can beat a WRX in acceleration, but people don't consider it a sports sedan or cross shop it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...toyota-camry-v-6-vs-subaru-impreza-wrx-page-2
The Bolt simply isn't aiming at the hot hatch segment.
green1
Active Member
This is likely because GM still thinks there's an "EV segment" and are targeting that. They only want to steal sales from imiev, leaf, i3, etc, they have no concept that an EV can compete in the rest of the market.
This is an extremely obvious point to someone like me, a "car guy." Like you, I'm finding it tough to comprehend how it isn't obvious to others, particularly a segment of Tesla/BEV fans that did not come from the world of performance cars. Cars like hot hatches are aimed at a particular crowd and must look and feel a certain way. If not marketed as such, a car will not compete in this class. The Bolt is a great example; a hot hatch buyer will not cross-shop these. The modification point is not to be missed, either - BEVs can't be performance-modded and that is a huge drawback for this segment.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Yet. I'm sure GM and others have software limited performance characteristics to preserve reliability. Once people hack into the software they should be able to extend some of the parameters to push higher current through the motors. Might require a fuse upgrade as well depending on how much headroom there is. However in something with a less than compelling design, i.e. Bolt, there might not be much desire to bother with hacking and performance mods.
It is a mid-size vehicle, albeit barely.
The Bold has 111.3 cubic feet net interior volume.
gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-1996-title40-vol16/pdf/CFR-1996-title40-vol16-sec600-315.pdfGPO.gov said:
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THE KEY TO SIGNIFICANT AND COMPELLING Model 3 PRODUCT DIFFRENYIATION WILL NOT BE VS. THE BOLT !
But, as ELON has said repeatedly ( including IN the past 24 hours in Hong Kong) ,it will be vs. the top of the line ICE cars IN THE PRICE BAND!!
1. Exterior Style/ Styling/ Looks ( Think ICE BMW or MB's, as I have only owned those and over 9 of them for the last 20 something years...so we are talking from Tires to Paint to steel/glass, Door handles , overall Aesthetics etc. )
2. Interior Fit, Form and Function ( Interior appointments ( quality and visual impact), flow ( e.g. seating configuration ), Functionality ( e.g. Legroom), Presence/ambiance ( dashboard, controls, navigation, sound etc ).
3. Performance ( Acceleration, Handling, Turning radius, Braking etc.)
4. Efficacy ( do things work well ) and Efficiency( how well do they work ) ..real world driving Range, battery Charging times, Quality
IN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE ABOVE, I EXPECT THE MODEL 3 WILL BE BTTER THAN THE BOLT .
But, that is NOT sufficient!
THE MODEL 3 will NEED to better on NEARLY ALL OF THE ABOVE VS. BMW and MB ICE Cars such the BMW 3 series and the C Class MB.
Since the Model 3 is an EV, it will not beat the above ICE cars on range, or charging time vs. fuel fill-up.
But, I believe it will be equal to, or better on ALL of the above counts.
BOLT will be competing against the Leaf, primarily. It will not stand a chance against the Model 3 head to head!
WHY ?
Because Chevy did not start out to be beat the BMW or MB ICE cars on the above characteristics/ factors!
Anyone who misses this profound difference is missing something elementary !
But, as ELON has said repeatedly ( including IN the past 24 hours in Hong Kong) ,it will be vs. the top of the line ICE cars IN THE PRICE BAND!!
1. Exterior Style/ Styling/ Looks ( Think ICE BMW or MB's, as I have only owned those and over 9 of them for the last 20 something years...so we are talking from Tires to Paint to steel/glass, Door handles , overall Aesthetics etc. )
2. Interior Fit, Form and Function ( Interior appointments ( quality and visual impact), flow ( e.g. seating configuration ), Functionality ( e.g. Legroom), Presence/ambiance ( dashboard, controls, navigation, sound etc ).
3. Performance ( Acceleration, Handling, Turning radius, Braking etc.)
4. Efficacy ( do things work well ) and Efficiency( how well do they work ) ..real world driving Range, battery Charging times, Quality
IN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE ABOVE, I EXPECT THE MODEL 3 WILL BE BTTER THAN THE BOLT .
But, that is NOT sufficient!
THE MODEL 3 will NEED to better on NEARLY ALL OF THE ABOVE VS. BMW and MB ICE Cars such the BMW 3 series and the C Class MB.
Since the Model 3 is an EV, it will not beat the above ICE cars on range, or charging time vs. fuel fill-up.
But, I believe it will be equal to, or better on ALL of the above counts.
BOLT will be competing against the Leaf, primarily. It will not stand a chance against the Model 3 head to head!
WHY ?
Because Chevy did not start out to be beat the BMW or MB ICE cars on the above characteristics/ factors!
Anyone who misses this profound difference is missing something elementary !
says who? Tesla is a poor example of what can/cannot be done, because of the security systems they have in place and the constant development they put in.
Given enough time, someone will be able to up the performance of any BEV's, especially if the battery current isn't the limiting factor.
Where the potential customer isn't within 100 miles of a Tesla authorized service center, you better believe the Bolt will be competitive. Not everyone's going be swayed enough by the model 3's advantages to be willing to take a chance on not having access to a service center. But in this situation, the Bolt isn't competing with the model 3, it's competing for the dollars that would've gone to another ICE vehicle.
It's a fallacy to think that other BEV's must do poorly or else model 3 will do poorly. They both can do really well, and the Bolt will probably benefit from the buzz that the model 3 generated.
green1
Active Member
I like your theory, however we've seen with the S that is not the case. The MS does 1, 3, and 4, but not 2. Yet it sells very well. (It's not "bad" on 2, but it's just not in the same class as the other cars in it's price band.
So while I want the 3 to be better in all the categories than anything else in it's class, I think we'll find there's a good chance it will good, not be a slam-dunk.
Ok, I think you make a fair point re 2.
However, with the Model 3 , TSLA maybe be able to do BETTER vs. BMW and MB, because it may be easier to outdo in the lower price band vs trying to outdo the upscale MB S class or the BMW 7 using the Model S.
Since TSLA is still new, compared to BMW and MB history of experience, and is iterating faster, and bringing a number of things in-house, while still sourcing a lot from Germany, I believe they could surprise us.
I do believe that TSLA needs to take it up a notch on 2, particularly with interior appointments, fittings and visual/perceptual quality. Let's see....
Yes, you are correct ! I agree and I should have qualified what I said by limiting it to states and areas where Tesla has, or will not have not just service centers, but also sales offices, particularly for test drives and for in-person comparisons.
So, yeah many parts of Montana, Wyoming, Utah, rural Texas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, Mississippi etc. will be open for the Bolt because of what you say about service centers. Of course, some may still balk because of the absence of a Supercharger network for the Bolt and may allow the dealer salesperson to talk them into buying another ICE instead, if the supercharger network comparison was an issue for them.
In addition, since Chevy says the Bolt will be shipping by the end of this year, and I assume will be available in Chevy dealer showrooms at least by early 2017, and Model 3 will arrive in Tesla sales offices probably 9-12 months after the Bolt, the Bolt should have a time window of opportunity there. So, yeah, it will get its share by default and also from loyal Chevy/ GM owners, particularly if Chevy properly incentivizes their dealers to sell EV's.
I say this because under the current Chevy dealer profit opportunity system, an EV sale will most likely be significantly less profitable for the dealer/owner on a net present value of each sale basis, over the lifecycle of an EV, relative to the life cycle of an ICE car. If I owned a Chevy dealership, I certainly would use every opening to keep my customer buying an ICE car.
My conversation with Chevy corporate, as a Chevy dealership owner , would go something like this this :
" Ok, I realize we need to also look to the future and not lose market share to new EV entrants in our price band, BUT, I as the dealer - owner will now incur higher sales training and education costs with my sales force, the conversations will take more time and go back and forth between EV and ICE cars, taking up more sales time, and then I still have to have a service dept with equipment, and training and service technicians to service both the ICE and EV platforms ( which are completely different) , not to mention the extra square footage I will need to have in my service department building/facility. So, Chevy Corporate, how are you going to help me , financially, not just with the lower service department revenues of an EV car, but how are you going to compensate me additionally for the incremental sales time, training and service departments costs for a completely new EV platform , while I as the dealer still have to meet the ICE car sales goals which are your bread and butter. "
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In the areas you mention here, cars aren't even that popular. Truck and truck-like vehicles are most popular. We live on the edge of the Portland area kind of in the transition zone between the city and rural Washington. Trucks and SUVs are far more popular here than in Portland. I was down at the Ford dealer in town and the sales guy told me they sell almost zero cars. The only cars they had on the lot were used and they must have had 50 brand new vehicles on truck chassis. The typical vehicle buyer in the rural west is very suspicious of pinko commie ideas like electric vehicles and those areas will likely be among the last regions penetrated by EVs.
However, the overall point of service center access is one I see as a problem too. One of the considerations in buying a Tesla for me is the long trip to the nearest SC, it's on the opposite corner of the Portland area for me, about 40 miles through city traffic. I'm hoping Tesla will open more SCs when they introduce the Model 3. They should put one near or in every clump of auto dealers, at least in any area with Tesla's running around. There is a big auto mall in Vancouver, which would be reasonably convenient for me. Even if they just put one in the clump of auto dealers in Longview, WA I'd be happy. Longview has the lowest sales tax in the state and it's on the major N-S interstate, so the car dealers do OK there despite it being a small town on rural I-5. It's about as far away for me as the current Portland SC, but it's a much easier drive through the outer suburbs of Vancouver, then up a rural stretch of I-5.
If Tesla doesn't expand the SC network, cars like the Bolt might be more competitive with the Model 3 in areas like mine where there is some interest in EVs (though not as great as more urban areas) and access to a Chevy dealership is far easier. One of my neighbors may work for BMW, he had an i3 for a while, but I haven't seen it in a few months. That was the only EV in the neighborhood, most of the other vehicles are luxury ICE or Fords.
My SO likes cars the size of the Model 3 and she might get one if her business improves, but I'm looking at the Model S. I have very long legs (I'm only 6'2", but I'm all legs) and many cars are OK for me on short trips, but really leave me stove up on long trips. That's the situation with my SO's Subaru Impreza (same footprint as a BMW 3 Series) and the seat just won't quite go back far enough. I was really stove up for a couple of days when we got back from our last trip and had some pain for a month. There is a good chance the Model 3 isn't going to work for me on long trips and I need a car capable of making trips to California. I telecommute with a company in Morgan Hill (south of San Jose) and my 96 years old father lives on the Central Coast. I also need a car with decent cargo capacity, on our last trip to California we came back with enough stuff that the car was packed to the gills.
Barring unexpected expenses, I should have enough saved up for a Model S by the end of this year, possibly earlier. If my SO gets a Model 3 (or more likely Y she prefers wagons), it will probably have enough leg room for me to drive it once in a while, but the Model S will be our road car.
green1
Active Member
Please don't tell me you're complaining about your service centre being 40 miles away! mine is 605 miles away! How about they start by getting a service centre within a few hour drive of every store (only 12 miles away from me), then they can think about where else to put them.
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